I started this podcast to show off the absolute gems of humans I get to tattoo and interact with on a regular basis. I am a very very very lucky person.
Karin is one of those people. I have been tattooing big gorgeous detailed artful realistic flowers on her for about two years. Our conversations range from the personal/political to the
intimately personal, to food, to clothes, but mostly how to be a decent person in this world.
In this interview we talk about what being basic means, and also alternative, how hard it is for those of us raised with little attention to our needs to stand out as adults, to receive
attention. I ask Karin why she, at fifty, decided to start covering her body with big gorgeous florals, how it has changed her self perception, and also what other parts of life have been making
her happy lately.
We are sweet and funny and quippy, and it will give your good vibes if you listen in.
episode transcript:
Micah Riot:
Hey, Micah Riot here. So you know how I started this podcast to showcase how amazing and beautiful and fascinating and lovely people I get to tattoo are. Today is a prime example of that. Karen Riley is really one of the most kind humans I've ever met, ever met, and I just feel so lucky that I get to tattoo her, that she's given me so much freedom to help her come more inside her skin, to own her body, to love her body. I really feel honored to be part of her process around this and to be given so much freedom and so much trust and I'm really excited for all of you to meet her. Much freedom and so much trust, and I'm really excited for all of you to meet her.
Micah Riot:
Quick content warning we talk a little bit about childhood trauma not a ton, not in detail, but it's there and we also mention working with people living with HIV and AIDS, as well as domestic violence and substance abuse Again not in detail, but we mention those things and with that I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed making it for you.
Karin Riley:
It's easier to talk when I'm not on the table being stabbed.
Micah Riot:
That's very fair. Are you sitting on the floor?
Karin Riley:
I am sitting on the floor because the couch in here is leather and I was afraid that if I moved it would make leather fart noises, so I'm sitting on the floor.
Micah Riot:
You might be the most thoughtful guest I've ever had, so will you please introduce yourself your name your pronouns your, I don't know what else your location, your age and your go-to breakfast.
Karin Riley:
My name is Karin I use she her pronouns. I am located in Bayview in San Francisco and I am a few weeks away from turning 52. I don't have a go-to breakfast item that I eat all the time. Recently I've been having gluten-free sourdough bread because I took a cooking class where we made sourdough bread and that's been good because I've been experimenting with the recipe and trying new things.
Micah Riot:
How is the bread? Is it delicious?
Karin Riley:
It's not delicious.
Micah Riot:
It does the job, but it's not quite as delicious as you'd like the texture is really good, which is not normally what people say about free bread.
Karin Riley:
So the texture is really good, and I am enjoying eating bread that has a really crisp crust on it. It's chewy, crisp crust on it, it's chewy. I'm still playing with the flavor, though, because the the blend of flowers that I'm using right now isn't quite up to what I would like it to be you know what texture is like half the battle, right, it is.
Micah Riot:
I feel like it's like more, even more important, because you know what you can do to the flavor. Let's put this on it Chili crisps. Yum, I've discovered this magical category of food and this might be my favorite brand. Do you know this stuff? I do. Okay, it's apparently just me who, like, wasn't familiar.
Karin Riley:
Yeah, it is. It's good stuff. I haven't tried it on bread, which sounds silly.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, like grown it everything. But for people who are just listening and not watching, what I was showing was a jar of a brand that comes from Japan called Musso, and it's umami black garlic chili crisps, which is just like a topping that I put on literally everything, and it's consists of sesame oil, onion, seaweed, shiitake, mushroom, garlic, sesame seeds, sea salt, chili pepper, sugar, tamari, soy sauce, um, some other things smaller, you know quantities, but essentially it's just like a flavor bomb, and I've also gotten excited about trying to make it myself, which I haven't for a while, but to like, take the sugar out of it yeah, yeah, there are a lot of different.
Karin Riley:
You know this about me, right, I'm such a nerd, but there are a lot of different cultural variations. In spicy pepper sauces, right, everyone has something. Um, and I know some from the middle east use nuts sugar, so that might be an option too I would collect this shit like I would literally collect it from all over the world.
Micah Riot:
I love it and I also totally and I didn't realize that I liked spice as much as I do. I feel like maybe now I could get into ruts with my food, you know, and I'll be like okay, I'm having my chicken breast that I roasted with my vegetable and it's like fine, but I just want there to be like a kick and like an experience in my mouth and I'm so like, ah, chicken breast again, you know.
Karin Riley:
Yeah.
Micah Riot:
But like it's what makes me feel good, so that's what I eat. But then I want like an experience.
Karin Riley:
Yeah, I don't think it's a rut. I think you totally nailed it when you said it makes you feel good. That's not a rut, that's taking care of yourself.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, but like you know, just in like the flavor sense of it, I get into this kind of like oh it's so boring, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, you have a lot of. So you, you've been getting tattooed by me for now what two years.
Karin Riley:
I think that's right. I didn't look back to see when our first appointment was, but it seems like it's about two years, because I remember my interview and that was over the holidays. It was probably November or December. Yeah, so it would have been two years.
Micah Riot:
I love that you're calling it an interview. Can you tell me more about why you're calling it an interview instead of a consultation?
Karin Riley:
I. So I was. I was laughing at myself because I was thinking back to some of the podcasts that I've listened to, some of your podcasts, and you were talking about the intake questionnaire that you do, or you used to do, with your clients and you said something about you know some people write a book, and I thought, oh, that's me. I took it really seriously and I do take things like that seriously. You know being considerate of other people and you know what do you do in your local community, and that's huge for me. It's one of the things I like best about being in San Francisco and being in the Bay Area is that there is such an opportunity to make a difference immediately, locally, right In my neighborhood, in my city, in the Bay Area. So I did think of that conversation, that first conversation we had as an interview.
Micah Riot:
Who was interviewing whom conversation we had as an interview.
Karin Riley:
Who was interviewing whom? You were interviewing me. I had already seen your work. I already knew that I liked your work. I knew what I wanted to get out of it, um, but I didn't know if I would be somebody that right Cause, again referring back to your, your other podcasts I'm that middle-aged white lady right and literally named Karen. There is nothing about me that is, you know, outside of the average everyday person from the outside. So I did take it really seriously.
Micah Riot:
I think it's so interesting how the most beautiful people humble themselves, you know, to like this, this sort of like the labels of like well, I'm white and I'm my name is this, and like, like Liz does this, you do this Like, but I hear Liz do this, right, like her name is Liz Williams, like the most common name in the world, in America, and she would just be like, well, I'm just like this basic average girl and I'm just like, no, you're not. And also like what does that mean? So I hear you say that. Actually, a fair amount. It's funny. I think you guys would like love each other, I'm sure we would?
Karin Riley:
I'm sure we would. And do you know that my maiden name is Johnson? Oh yeah, so lucky truly. And it's all about perception. Right From the outside, I'm an average middle aged white lady, and if I introduced myself to someone by name, it's not going to identify me as anything but an average middle-aged white lady. But it's like what that's okay. That's that's where you find the people who you're supposed to spend time with, because they do go deeper than what you look like on the outside and what your name is. Right that that's where you find the people who become part of your circles. But yeah, I'm very aware that on the outside I just look like a, an average person and that's okay.
Micah Riot:
And you know, what's funny is that when I was younger and like more in the scene, like in the queer scene, where I would go to places and see people, which I don't do anymore but people would be like you look familiar and I'd be like I just look like a generic queer person.
Karin Riley:
Yeah great, I look like an average middle-aged white lady.
Micah Riot:
And I think we all think that about ourselves. We just look like some generic queer person, some generic white lady, some colored hair punk rock girl, Like it's not, there's. No, I don't. I think we all think that about ourselves.
Karin Riley:
Yeah, probably, and I I know I spent a lot of time as a teenager and as a a younger adult trying to stand out in different points in time in my life and that was so uncomfortable for me, I didn't like. I didn't like attracting attention that way. So I am totally cool with not not standing out.
Micah Riot:
Does that sound weird? No, I'm trying to ask you a question about that in a way that makes sense. So how did you try to stand out before, when you were younger? What did you try?
Karin Riley:
into. I've always been very into music and when I was 13, 14, 15-ish maybe not that old, maybe it was 12, 15, 14, whatever it was I was very into kind of the alternative scene. It wasn't punk, because where I lived there wasn't a huge punk scene, but I had a mullet right, it wasn't called a mullet at that point, but it was spiked and I had a mullet and I very much dressed androgynously with a lot of makeup and and usually in one color palette. I would do like really heavy pink makeup one day, or really heavy purple makeup, and I did not fit in with the other folks my age, which was also okay at the time.
Micah Riot:
Are there photos of this?
Karin Riley:
I don't know. I don't actually have a lot of photos anymore. That's not something I hold on to. That's not stuff that I keep. It was. It was also not an easy point in time in my life, so there's a lot of stuff I just haven't held on to.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, I would have loved to see a picture of Karen bright pink makeup with a spiked like like mullet and like tight jeans and I don't know kind of androgynous out like that sounds. That sounds amazing, I feel like. I feel like this is something you could pull off now.
Karin Riley:
I totally would you. You know, that's my comfort outfit too bright pink makeup. Yeah, yeah, all the bright pink bard makeup across the eyes. No but the the casual, loose, comfortable clothes.
Micah Riot:
I'm thinking more like punk rock, like 80s. I know you said it wasn't punk, it was more alternative. But I'm thinking like the torn, torn jeans, like the rock, the rockers, the like yeah, more like the british yes style. That's kind of what I'm thinking about. I don't know if that yeah it totally is.
Karin Riley:
It, totally is, yeah. Yeah, I saw David Bowie was huge on my list. I somehow managed to see him multiple times as a teenager with no car and no money. It's amazing, it really was. I pulled off some really good stuff somehow and made it through it through.
Micah Riot:
So that thing about attention getting um, you didn't like being in the center of attention, you didn't like people paying attention to you. So when did that? When did you shift like your look, you know from maybe being and I think that when you were younger, like, dressing that way can also be a way of like putting a wall up right, like don't come to me like I'm intimidating, don't talk to me like I'm scary and I'm different, and so. But then that shifts into being more of like, uh, I'm just gonna dress to look more invisible. So when do you think that shifted?
Karin Riley:
I think I always shifted my appearance based on the people I was friends with and where I was living. It took me a long time to figure out who I was independently. I think I'm still figuring it out, figuring it out. So for a long time in college I dated someone who was in the Navy. So I was very much the like prim and proper and white heels and that kind of thing, which was highly entertaining. It was a very big shift. And then in the late nineties, early 90s actually, and through the 90s it was very much grunge, you know, and big flannel shirts. And then I got a air quote, proper job, and needed to dress for work in a way that didn't cause trouble. So it was navy blue skirts and button-down shirts and pantyhose and all that kind of stuff. I don't even think I own pantyhose anymore and I definitely don't have any pencil skirts left, because you're in the Bay now, cause I'm in the Bay now.
Micah Riot:
Yeah.
Karin Riley:
That would be standing out tremendously to wear anything like that. But yeah, and I think a lot of it was trying, as you said, trying to put up a wall when I was a teenager and then trying to fit in so that I didn't draw attention, because that was never a safe thing to do. You know, I've realized that there was a lot of um, there were a lot of times when it just wasn't safe for me to bring attention to myself as a kid, as a young adult, so I didn't myself as a kid, as a young adult, so I didn't.
Micah Riot:
It's something I talked about with my therapist yesterday. Actually, this topic and I think she said that felt very new way to put it is we were talking. She was telling me how, when the child grows up with caretakers that put their own needs before the child's needs, it's really hard for the child to then grow up and receive attention from people that love them and really be able to receive it, because you always think that any attention coming in to your sphere means that you have to then take care of other people's needs.
Karin Riley:
Interesting. Yeah, I can. I can see that in my case it was not safe. My father was an inconsistently treated bipolar and at the time it was called manic depression and that was a really good description for what he did and how that affected the rest of us. And so if you didn't draw attention, you wouldn't be the target of anything that was happening. And yes, I absolutely agree with you that when you have inconsistent parenting or an inconsistent household right, I don't think this is just parenting but if you're a child in a household where your needs are not taken care of, where you have to learn to be independent, it is very hard to get attention from anyone else because it's not a safe thing. It makes things very uneven, very unstable.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, yes, and it was the way that she specifically put it. Like other people, when they come closer, it feels like it's all about their needs, even if it's not you know, and so you as an adult, like you, still kind of function that way of like I can't like this is overwhelming right, like getting attention.
Karin Riley:
And that's still true.
Micah Riot:
Yeah.
Karin Riley:
Yeah, a lot of, a lot of things happening or being the center of attention. It's just hard because it's unfamiliar. I don't know that it will ever go away. You know, as much as I work on it, as much as my therapist tells me I'm doing a great job. It's just it's it's it's a lifelong thing, right, it changes who you are and how you're wired as a person.
Micah Riot:
Yes, and it, I mean it also, you know. However, whatever our trauma is, it carries gifts too, you know.
Micah Riot:
it also makes us more perceptive, more considerate, more caring, like in different ways, more able to connect in certain ways right, even if some parts of connection are difficult, like receiving. But so you know, for me this sort of sense of being at the center of attention is bad and scary. As I get older it feels like it's translating more and more into the way that I look, Also so much about what I do to my, to my skin, but more like I can't have a bright, colorful hair because people will comment on it and it just feels like why would I bother? You know, for example, not that I want to have colorful hair if I did, I'd have it. But when I've had hairstylists suggest color, I'd be like can't pull it off, it's too much, you know, and inside I'm going. If I had bright blue hair, people would like comment on it and I'd be like I don't want to talk to you about it you know, so it kind of like translates to that too, and so I think that I can then translate to tattoos as well.
Micah Riot:
It's like here we're getting the topic of tattoos. I'm so I mean what I you know, and so I mean what I'm asking is like, does that feel relevant to you? Like I mean, you started to get tattoos recently, right?
Micah Riot:
Like you're turning 52. So it's the second half of your life. You're clearly very excited about them and passionate about them, and so does that feel relevant to this topic we're talking about of like how to center yourself in your own life, or attention and the physical marks of sort of like right their attention, getting things like maybe not when you go to work every day, but if you went to the beach and you wear a bikini, people will be like hey, you've got flowers all over you right, yeah, it, it is relevant because I have I've had one tattoo for several decades, right, and that was a reminder tattoo.
Karin Riley:
That was kind of not necessarily a memorial tattoo, but it was a reminder tattoo, and these, the flowers that you are doing for me, are all about me, right, it is. It's a celebration of the good things in my life and it's funny that you say go to the beach. We were on vacation last week with my husband's family and my sister-in-law. I hope I don't cry when I say this. My sister-in-law took a picture of me in my bathing suit and showed me later.
Karin Riley:
I didn't know that she had taken it and she showed me later and she said I want you to see how beautiful your tattoos are in your bathing suit. She said that is so gorgeous in your bathing suit. She said that is so gorgeous. And it was such an affirming thing to hear, because I don't talk about what I'm doing with my body. They're for me and they hadn't seen them. And so to have her say this is absolutely gorgeous and I want you to see what it looks like from someone else's perspective, just felt like it was one of the nicest things I've heard from anyone ever.
Micah Riot:
So, yeah, how did that attention feel? Like somebody noticed your body and noticed how you look and like that's a lot.
Karin Riley:
It is. I think the attention didn't bother me because I didn't know what was happening when it was happening, which makes it sound a little creepy, but I was fine with it in that context and I don't know if it's because of who it came from or whether it's because I'm getting better at managing that she sounds like a loving person.
Micah Riot:
sister-in-law.
Karin Riley:
I am so fortunate my chosen family, my chosen friends, the people in my circles. I have realized I have very intentionally surrounded myself with people who are just amazing. I have some really amazing friends and chosen family. I'm extremely fortunate in that way and count you among those people.
Micah Riot:
So I'm crying from your story as well. Is this a picture you're willing to share with me?
Karin Riley:
Yes, If I have it. I don't know if she sent it to me. She might have it on her phone, but yes, I will ask her to send it to me. I'm going to send it over.
Micah Riot:
And were you, besides like feeling kind of like loved in that moment? Did you look at the picture and go, yes, I do look beautiful.
Karin Riley:
I do, and you and I talk about that a lot. Right, that's something that we talk about every time I'm on your table. And I did. I looked at the picture and I can see the muscle definition coming back in my arms and in my back. Yeah, right.
Micah Riot:
I just made a face like really Okay.
Karin Riley:
And it was just. You know, I think when you can recognize that people are in their authentic selves, it's a big deal. And it was neat to see it from someone else's perspective in me, because I did see it and that's not something I have always seen in pictures of myself. So to see myself relaxed and having a conversation and have someone else tell me that, it's a really beautiful thing. Again, it was just super affirming it was. I talked about that in therapy this week and then I looked at my calendar to see when you and I have our next appointment.
Micah Riot:
So you could tell me about it?
Karin Riley:
Just so I could tell you about it and so that I could get more right. More make it bigger.
Micah Riot:
Make it bigger. Yes, let's do more. Um, how did you come to the point where you decided it was time and then, when you decided it was the time, it was for flowers for that many and that much like? How did you come to that for that many and that much?
Karin Riley:
Like how did you come to that? That's a really good question. I didn't come to the decision of doing the whole my whole torso until last fall, when you and I discussed it. Prior to that, I had decided I wanted or needed reminders of the good people and the good things that had happened in my life and for me. I'm very location oriented and when I think about the places where I was happy, where things were good, one of the things I see in my mind are the plants and the flowers that were there, and that's how I wanted to memorialize that on my body.
Micah Riot:
It's a place you feel at peace.
Karin Riley:
Yeah, and why not literally carry that with me, in a way that it was very present for me, not just a memory that I could pull up in my head, but a visible touchstone on my body.
Micah Riot:
And from my experience of doing florals are a common theme in tattooing and it's probably something I would say out of all the work I've done, probably have 75% have been something to do with plants. But most people when they come with a request for plants they go okay, I have these five plants that I want. Here's the amount of space I'm giving you for it. You know, make it work Like, make a little bouquet, a little vignette, something happen like that. And you didn't do that. You were kind of like I didn't even know what you said, because it's hard for me to remember what people ask for, because I only can see what we came up with and the process sort of gets lost, almost like from what you came with to the vision. Now it's really hard for me to like bridge that in my mind, cause I just it doesn't even exist to me anymore, like what asked for. So what did you ask?
Karin Riley:
for I don't. I don't remember what I originally asked for either, because we've talked about it so much and it's changed so much in the past two years. Right, instead of doing and no, I'm not a bouquet person I am not a bouquet person in my life, when I had a house that had a yard and gardens, they were crazy gardens. Right, they were cottage gardens, with things pouring out of the flower beds. That's what's beautiful to me. Right Is the abundance and the overwhelming contained space. That, to me, that's living. Right, and maybe that goes back to my childhood. I don't know, I haven't analyzed that. It doesn't matter, but that what we talked about has changed over time and when, when we have put something on my body the placement, the color, the response that other people have had to it my husband loves them, right, I love them. My friends who have seen them absolutely think they're gorgeous.
Karin Riley:
Every single person asks who did them? Right, like that to me is a really big deal. It's not just oh, that's a really cool tattoo. It's like oh, my God, who did your tattoo? Where is that from and why? Would I not want more of that? You know, if it makes me feel good and it makes me like the way my body looks even more. Me like the way my body looks even more. Why not? It's the same reason when I was working out five days a week that I worked out. I love the way I looked, I love the way that I moved, I love the way that it made me feel about myself.
Micah Riot:
So if tattoos can do that, heck yeah yeah, that's fair, but that's not what most people do, you know, and so that's like another way that you're not so basic after all I was gonna say that's okay people right, not so basic after all, um, but yeah, like you really have sort of given well, given me a lot of space and scope to work with um, but also yourself, you know, I don't.
Micah Riot:
I think when people limit themselves to like, you know, here's, I just want it this big and I want it over here and it has to just be contained in that space. You know it's not me, they're limiting, it's themselves. Yeah, right, and so I try to talk them out of it sometimes, like, well, if you kind of let it grow more organically, it's going to be more pretty, it's going to belong on your body more. But people have a really certain idea. Like tattoos are okay as long as they're, you know, this big and take up this much space and don't take over, and aren't you know too? Take up this much space and don't take over, and aren't you know too?
Karin Riley:
Nobody can see it through my work shirt. It's not going to show up if I'm wearing a tank top, For sure. Yeah, when are you even doing it? Yeah, why I? Just that's not. Again, it's just not who I am. And when I look at myself when I'm working out, you know if there's a mirror in front of me or I can see my reflection when I'm working out and the magnolia that I have on my shoulder, that pedal right and I know you are really conscious of placement. I don't know if everyone else thinks about that, but the way that that pedal hits my shoulder, it moves so beautifully. And again, I know it may sound silly, but if the placement of a tattoo can make me want to do more chest presses or more military presses, great, it's just going to make the whole thing more beautiful it's.
Micah Riot:
I mean, it's a really powerful thing. I think you know, like how you see your body and if there's something that you're if it's a tattoo or if it's an outfit you're wearing that makes you feel like really good and powerful and attractive and all that Like yeah, like those things are really helpful. They're tools in helping us get where we want to go, right.
Karin Riley:
Absolutely yeah. The clothing, the, the tattoos, the haircut, the makeup, whatever it is. If something makes you feel better about who you are, I fully support that. That's one of the things I do with my volunteer work, right. Helping people be comfortable in who they are, helping them maintain their lives right. What's important to them in their lives. That's really, really important to me. So, yeah, now that I can do it for myself.
Micah Riot:
I will. Will you tell us more about the volunteer work? Tell those sinners about your volunteer work.
Karin Riley:
Yeah, I volunteer. I volunteer several places, but where I am most active is with a program in San Francisco called the Shanti Project and their sister program called PAWS, which is an acronym. Pets Are Wonderful Support, and it started in the late 80s for folks experiencing AIDS who were in the hospital dying of this new cancer. Right, there wasn't a name for it. They didn't, there wasn't a name for it, and they just needed someone to sit and listen to them. Right, these were people who were being told they were not going to survive and so many of them didn't. And so it's.
Karin Riley:
It's being a volunteer, being paired with or matched with someone in the city who needs support, and it's not just folks who are or were. Maybe their virus levels can no longer be detected, which is fantastic. Women with cancer, folks within the LGBTQIA plus community who are aging and need physical assistance with shopping or cleaning or just need someone to spend time with. Right, Because a lot of these folks have lost friends and, you know, I think everyone who really cares about anybody in the LGBTQ community understands that they may also have lost their family. You know, family members just don't Whether you are in the community or not. Family isn't forever. You know, that's just not a thing, and so if I can provide that support um to someone, I absolutely will. So I've been working with them since 2017, since I moved to the city and now I also help facilitate training so that, as new people come into the program, I get to work with folks who are, who are training.
Micah Riot:
Do you still see clients Like you have like a some amount of folks that you see on some regular basis?
Karin Riley:
I don't have a um, a single aligned client right now. My client passed it's been two years ago actually and I haven't felt ready to take on anyone else. We were paired for three or four years and we're very close and that was hard. It was really hard for me, not in that he was ready to go. It was the right time, that's okay. He's with his old boy. Him leaving was okay. What was hard for me was opening up that much time and space long-term to someone else. So I've done short-term and more of the pause. So the on the pet side, it's helping people who maybe can't walk or because they are on chemo or unwell, it's not safe for them to clean up after the animals. You know doing that kind of thing and also delivering food to people.
Micah Riot:
So you would basically come in for pet care, yeah, okay, yeah, and like walk their dog and like walk their dog.
Karin Riley:
I I have. You know this as well. I have um animal rescue experience. So if somebody needs a cat who has needs to be pilled every day at two o'clock, I'll I'll go do that or subcutaneous fluids, or taking someone's dog to the vet for a vet appointment. Because they're not mobile, they can't leave their apartment or go that far or be out of their apartment for that long a period of time. I'll take their pet to the vet for them.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, yeah, that is a really serious commitment to humanity, yeah that is a really serious commitment to humanity.
Karin Riley:
It's so life-changing for the person you're helping and honestly, again, I have the time, I have the ability to do this. If it's going to make someone else's life that much better, why would I not do it? I can spend an afternoon with an absolutely adorable there's. There's one client whose dog I've taken to the vet several times and the dog's name is sugar and she is the sweetest, you know. I go to pick her up and she's happy to see me and she's happy to get in the car and she's happy to go to the vet and she's happy to walk out of the vet and she's happy to get in the car and she's happy to go to the vet and she's happy to walk out of the vet and she's happy to get home to her mom and it's like there is nothing bad about that.
Micah Riot:
There's no bad in that. How big is Sugar? Is she white?
Karin Riley:
Of course she's a white little mini poodle, I don't know. She's a little white curly haired, uh, munchkin, and I would guess she's maybe just under 20 pounds. She's not as big as our cats used to be, so she's under 20 pounds, yeah I love the way you're smiling talking about this stuff like this work it's a big deal, you, I love it.
Micah Riot:
When was the first time you were exposed to the realities of folks living with AIDS and queerness? How big of a deal that is in our world, and it's becoming less so. But when were you first sort of found out that there were people who were different in those ways and shunned by society because of it? Different in those?
Karin Riley:
ways and shunned by society because of it. In the 80s, very early on, my mom was a nurse. She worked as a nurse and always did well. I was living at home. She always did women's care, usually labor and delivery or something to do with sexual health and early on nurses were aware that something was happening and there were patients I was too young to really be able to compare it to COVID right Patients that people didn't want to touch, patients that people didn't want to treat. But I knew that there was something that was not right and I did not grow up in a very progressive area, so the idea that sick people who needed help were not being cared for didn't sit well with me.
Karin Riley:
And I think I definitely had friends who I knew were gay in high school, but I went to a Catholic high school so it was not a topic of conversation.
Karin Riley:
And when I got to college we had friends who were gay and who were out, which was great because they were. It was nice to live in a place where people were comfortable with that, comfortable in being who they were, where people were comfortable with that, comfortable in being who they were and could be who they were with their friends openly. And then I lived in New York for a year after college and that was in the mid nineties, so there was a very big gay presence. So yeah, I guess probably the most exposure I had was when I was in New York. That was the most variety of people, you know. Having the older gay couple that lived down the street and working with people who were gay and then having city events around pride, that was probably the most um, the broadest exposure to different gay culture, the first time I had been exposed. And then I don't know, how come that was.
Micah Riot:
That was the sort of cause that you really poured your energy into, as opposed to addiction or women's domestic violence, other kinds of big causes that you probably also weren't really aware of yeah, really good question.
Karin Riley:
I think women's violence for me hit a little too close to home. I think women's violence for me hit a little too close to home. That would have been exceptionally challenging for me to reconcile with my own experience. What I grew up with. That has taken me a really long time to face on my own.
Karin Riley:
So I think doing anything publicly would have been too hard and I still get very, very angry. I saw a meme the other day. Every woman has a friend who has an ancient rage inside of her, usually directed at men. I'm probably that friend for a lot of people and, yeah, that would have been too close and my sister was an addict, so I think again, that would have been just a little close, yeah, and I'm very aware of that as an adult.
Karin Riley:
Right, there are things that I can manage and handle because I still protect myself at some level. Um, but I do feel like this is something I've really opened myself up to since moving to the city and I love being here. I just love being in an area where everyone has the opportunity to celebrate who they are. And I know it's not perfect, you know, I'm not blind to the fact that it is still extremely challenging, but we are very fortunate here that we have the resources that we do, we have the parades that we do. Um, yeah, yeah, it's. It's a very different world when I hear people who have lived in the Bay area for most of their lives, or at least since they've been out, who talk about wanting to move to different places. Um, you know, remove I, you know I grew up on the East coast, so I think of moving back East as a really challenging thing to do. You know, it's just not culturally, it's just not the same.
Micah Riot:
Even like New York and like places like that.
Karin Riley:
From my experience. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's my experience. Everyone has a different experience and I was definitely not part of any groups when I was living in New York. You know that were as involved.
Micah Riot:
Well, you also had a lot less like personal resources at that time and all the way.
Karin Riley:
Yeah, that's totally true. Yeah, yeah, I couldn't feed myself, I didn't have the ability to, you know, to join anything else. But, um, I definitely had a lot more fire when I was a kid. You know, when I was younger I had a lot more energy to be outraged about things and speak up about things, and I think it comes from a different place. It comes from a place of love.
Micah Riot:
Now, yeah, I hear that. I mean there's also just, I think as you get older you see the complexity of things that makes it a lot harder to just yell one specific thing. So the structures that be are so strong that exhausting yourself, fighting against them isn't necessarily the best use of our energy and time. I think that's a part of it too. But it's always refreshing to hear people who are going to transplant to California and I am also, but I've been here since I was 12, more or less like when we came from Russia. So I kind of feel like if I am an American, I'm a Californian.
Karin Riley:
Yeah.
Micah Riot:
And how much I dream about going to the East Coast and kind of imagine it and you know, having lived in Ohio for a time when I was in college, having that kind of romanticizing the change in weather, you know, changing seasons and the red leaves of the fall and like the blossoms of the spring, and we have that here a little bit right, but it's so subtle, and so I romanticize East Coast in a way of like I am from a place that has that and I think about that, like how awesome would be to like move back East and have a more chill life, like a less of a hustle life.
Karin Riley:
Yeah, and it's so not right Like you.
Micah Riot:
Well, I don't know Right, but to hear you, in New York has a chill life?
Karin Riley:
Yeah, no, not New York. I do not, I do not want to be in the city of New York has a chill life? Yeah, no, not New.
Micah Riot:
York. I do not want to be in the city of New York or the city of Boston. I don't want to be in a big city. My idea is more like Western Mass or like upstate New York.
Karin Riley:
Grew up in Western Mass and aside from Northampton there is not much that is chill there.
Micah Riot:
Northampton is kind of where I want to be. Northampton is awesome, yeah, I know, but I think, yeah, I think it's an interesting thing to just like listen to you and like some other folks who are really happy to be here. It's actually pretty rare to hear somebody talk about how stoked they are to be here, because most of us just grumble about how difficult it is, how much crime there is and how the disparity in class just makes things so desperate. And how difficult it is how much crime there is and how the disparity in class just makes things so desperate and how difficult it is to see how much like misery and poverty there is.
Karin Riley:
Right Like but I also feel like there's an opportunity to affect it.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, and that's that's. That's the refreshing piece.
Karin Riley:
Yeah, and that's what I see is different. Right, it's not that. It's not that there aren't homeless people. It's not that there aren't homeless people. It's not that there isn't crime yeah, but it's. There are resources for people here and I can go to Project Open Hand and volunteer for a day and know that the work I've done is going to feed 100 people. I didn't have the opportunity to do that back East. They wanted money. They wanted money Any organization that I came across and again, this was my experience. This may have been where I lived, but it's not that I didn't look, it's not that I didn't try. It was all sure, if you want to make a donation, we'll take a donation, Unless you have a ton of money. That's just not an option.
Micah Riot:
And it's also not fulfilling. There's a moment when you go, okay, I gave some money and it felt nice to give some money, but then you're like, oh, is the money going to establishing an office somewhere? That's going to push papers around that are about the people we're trying to help. It's not actually about the people. I hear that totally. You know, and like, during the pandemic I had more time and I volunteered for the Alameda food bank and it was so fun, Like it was such a good time. Yeah, I did it for a while, I don't know a year or something and then I started to feel like I couldn't like physically do it anymore. I had some foot pain and I just couldn't stand on my feet like that for a day and I stopped. Of course, now they send me emails or mail being like how about you give us some money?
Karin Riley:
Yeah, I get those too right. I volunteer for the city doing grocery shopping for people. During the pandemic the city partnered with the Shanti Project so anyone who had been a volunteer, who had actually gone through a background check, could pick up gift certificates to Safeway and it was $50 per family and you had a list of groceries that they needed for the week. And I found out that I am still really good at shopping on a budget. I always came in at $50 or just below $50. I think twice I added a few cents to cover taxes and then drop groceries off at people's doorsteps and it was.
Karin Riley:
It was so much fun, right, like being out, and it was scary. I'm not going to lie, being in the grocery store with other people was a little scary, but I also knew I was double masked and I was gloved and you know I before we knew that we didn't have to clean our groceries. You know I always had a jar of Clorox wipes with me in the car and I would wipe everything down when I put it down on someone's porch. So they were picking up clean bags and that sort of thing. But yeah, it's a very immediate way to give back. That's also how we got into animal rescue. You know, when we were on the East Coast and I couldn't literally couldn't find a group locally to volunteer with to help people, we started fostering dogs because that was a very immediate thing that would make a difference, because that was a very immediate thing that would make a difference.
Karin Riley:
And, yeah, we can't continue that out here because of where we live. There's an HOA. Here's a Karen who's not a fan of HOAs. There's an HOA rule in our neighborhood that you can't have more than two dogs per household.
Micah Riot:
Otherwise you'd have more. I'm sure, oh God, yeah, yeah, have more. I'm sure. Oh god, yeah, yeah, okay, so what is your personal recipe to fulfilling life? Oh, that sounds like volunteering is in there yeah for what?
Karin Riley:
else personally, um, personally, my family and friends, my husband, you and I have talked about this before. Right, I found my person so early in life and I am so fortunate to have done that. So, maintaining my family, maintaining the friendships that I have, that are really important to me, paying it forward.
Micah Riot:
So volunteering.
Karin Riley:
Volunteering. Maybe this still is volunteering, but being involved in my local community and paying attention to what's happening in the local community. So that's kind of volunteering, but it's also, I think, just being a good good citizen. Yeah, a good citizen, a good neighbor. I think it's more than citizen, because it's not about the city, it's about the people, neighbor yeah dogs dogs, cats, animals, just animals in general. Um, I don't know, that's a that's a tough question for me.
Micah Riot:
Art.
Karin Riley:
Art, food, music, all of the things, micah, all of the things, actually. Maybe that's what it is, maybe it's variety. You can have all of the things, yeah. I can have all of the things. I allow it. Thank you, yeah, can you tattoo all of the things on my body?
Micah Riot:
for me. You want all of the things. I thought you just called it flowers, we things on my body for me.
Karin Riley:
So you want all of the things I thought you just called it flowers we might have to throw a ladybug in there okay, yeah, okay, we can do that.
Micah Riot:
If you want some bugs, I think they belong with flowers.
Karin Riley:
They're interdependent, they have community together yeah yeah, I also feel like you need a back piece oh yeah, the flowers are going to go all the way around to the back there's going to be something, but there's something about like a whole piece, a cohesive like a back piece, like not just like tattoos on your back, but like a full back piece. There's something to me about even especially a person who looks like a middle-aged white lady named Karen even, especially a person who looks.
Micah Riot:
Like a middle-aged white lady named Karen Sure, librarian. I'll just, I'll just stand in of that for like librarian right, like just somebody who is like proper, somebody who little kids will approach and little ladies will approach and who just looks very like innocent and respectable and societally appropriate right respectable.
Karin Riley:
So you're saying I look respectable. I appreciate that well, why not?
Micah Riot:
but you know, like it's like somebody who doesn't look like they'd have like, and I guess a back piece to me signifies very serious commitment to tattoos, almost to a different extent, because you can't see it yourself, so it's not really it is for you, like they're all for us, like no tattoos are before other people, but it's, there's an energetic difference to that. Like you have this yeah big, beautiful canvas right.
Micah Riot:
This is the biggest piece of skin you have. It's the most you can do in a body besides a full body piece, which is another I guess, type of more extreme thing.
Micah Riot:
But there's something about somebody who just doesn't look. Maybe that same librarian lady has a little wrist piece or a little you know ankle piece or something, but like if when she takes off her little blazer with the buttons and you can see the sweater and there's a full ass back piece and it's like bold and it's big and it's you know, there's something about that that I just think is so great and it's that unexpected for me. I think it's like the surprise in a person.
Karin Riley:
I see that and I do agree with you. I think back pieces are beautiful. I see that and I do agree with you. I think back pieces are beautiful. Having now been tattooed on multiple areas of my body, I also have so much more respect for people who have tattoos on the fronts of their bodies, because the belly, the breasts and the ribs the worst.
Karin Riley:
Yeah, like that to me. Those are the people who are super tough. Like those. Those are the areas where I thought it was going to be easier, because there was more body fat.
Micah Riot:
And now there there are more nerves, more nerve endings there.
Karin Riley:
Yeah, you can do my back.
Micah Riot:
That's going to be nothing. After you've done the front of my back, I don't necessarily think that you know what you're talking about.
Karin Riley:
No, probably not I have. I have one magnolia and a branch on the back of my no, I mean, you know what you're talking about.
Micah Riot:
You know that shit fucking hurts, but the back can surprisingly be difficult. Yeah, it can be, and I have a back piece that is full and it definitely were sessions that felt fine. And then there were sessions that were just fucking agony. And Corey, my artist he works longer sessions that I usually do, so I think there's salvation there for my clients, as people usually get away with like three hours tops for me where you know I have sat for like four, four and a half with him and it gets.
Micah Riot:
It gets spicy, but you're tough like you can fucking do it. But just so you know, know the back can. Oh, I'm sure I don't think any of it's going to be easy, but also it's Well, it's also easy, because it's like bringing you closer to who you are on the inside.
Karin Riley:
And it's chosen. Yeah, this is, this is chosen. I know what I'm asking for. This is not a surprise, um, but also it's such a nice environment. You know like, yeah, I, I'm asking somebody to stab me repeatedly until the top layer of my skin is gone. I'm gonna have a great conversation. Sailor is there now? And is there anyone who doesn't love Sailor?
Micah Riot:
I mean there's not.
Karin Riley:
Lulu is there. Sometimes there's nothing bad about being there. You're going to make a cup of tea for me. You're going to tell me to have a lollipop. We're going to talk about food. We're going to talk about dogs. We're going to talk about love lives. Going to talk about dogs. We're going to talk about love lives. It's it's a really nice place to be. It's a great way to spend time I love that.
Micah Riot:
That is the kind of environment that it is that someone like you feels good and safe and held there. That's that's what it's for. Yeah, that's what it's about and what I said earlier about you don't know what you're talking about. I need to recant that Every tattoo you've gotten has been on the most sensitive of places in the body. You literally have covered first the most sensitive places in the body, so that's not what I meant. You clearly very much know about tattoo pain.
Karin Riley:
Yeah, I mean it's fine. I also appreciate that you always tell me what I'm getting into too, and I've never had my knees done. I haven't done anything on my knee. I'm guessing the back of the knee or the top of the calf would also be spicy.
Micah Riot:
I think the back of the knee you're right is up there, and then the feet the top of the tops of the knee, you're right, is up there, and then the feet, the tops of the feet.
Karin Riley:
The ankle bone was not cool, that was not fun. Yeah, that was not fun.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, I have some ankle stuff. I don't have anything on the tops of my feet and I feel like that would be hell. The neck this might be something that might be happening this year for me is my best friend and I've been friends since we were in our early twenties and she reminded me this year. She said remember when you said that when we turn 40, we'll get our next tattooed, and I was like you're overdue, I know, right, I'm overdue by a couple of days. Um, I was like happy birthday, by the way, thank you, thank you. Um, it's been a good birthday, by the way, thank you. Thank you, it's been a good birthday. But I was like I did say that. Okay, I don't remember, but I believe you and I'm down, and so we've started talking about what and when.
Micah Riot:
Her birthday is in November, so I don't feel like we need to rush, but maybe between now and hers or right after hers or something we can approach that project, since there's a lot of projects this year, did you agree on where on the neck they're not matching? It's just our necks Like. It's just a matter of like. We're 40. We're established in our lives more or less. I mean, things can change always, you know. But that she and I both felt like at 40 we'll be ready for like a very visible, more serious kind of a, a socially unacceptable tattoo. And you know, like I've had things done now my hands that I feel like you know in my 20s would have felt maybe not yet appropriate.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, yeah, that's just a stage of life I was at, but um, yeah, I mean I feel like I'm. I love a neck tattoo. Liz is gonna have a hard time with it, but she'll have to get over it yeah, she loves you.
Karin Riley:
She does love your tattoo she will.
Micah Riot:
Just you know, there's some people that really interconnect tattoos. She's not one of them my husband again.
Karin Riley:
This will date us horribly um.
Micah Riot:
My husband had an eyebrow piercing back in the day and I hated it really I really, really did, I really did I feel like the eyebrow piercing of the 90s, though they have this connotation of like a surfer boy. Was that what it was, or was it something else?
Karin Riley:
Actually, no, he wasn't a surfer boy, but that's why he ended up losing the piercing, because he was surfing and he wiped out it. Ripped out, no, it got sand in it, okay, and so he had to have it like surgically cleaned up. He's got a scar from it, yeah yeah, and you were.
Micah Riot:
You were like I'm sorry that you're suffering, but like glad you don't have the piercing anymore yeah, I.
Karin Riley:
I don't remember how the conversation exactly went, but it was very much that. Yeah, that's too bad. Can I drive you?
Micah Riot:
well, don't like, don't worry, I'm not, I'm not angling to put a neck neck tattoo on you because I don't. I don't actually think that would be the right thing for you territory that got a really long neck like that you do.
Micah Riot:
But that's not. It's not about neck length, it's just a style thing. I just feel like it would. I mean a lady, I mean a little bit, but I like don't see you with, like you know, some dark like neck tattoo situation, but I do see you with like a full back piece of sleeve, like those kinds of things.
Karin Riley:
Great.
Micah Riot:
Yeah.
Karin Riley:
You're going to have to put up with me for a really long time.
Micah Riot:
I would love to please, please, I would love to put up with you for a very, very long time. Good, you're stuck. Good, I'm going to ask you my kind of standard last question.
Karin Riley:
I have an answer.
Micah Riot:
Good, I'm going to ask it. Great, what's a small thing that's been making you happy lately?
Karin Riley:
I got new sheets. I got linen sheets and I am absolutely loving them.
Micah Riot:
What color?
Karin Riley:
They're white. Okay, just plain white, but it's the texture and the fact that we've had this conversation too. I sleep hot right. Menopause is not a joke, and sheets that are heavy or sticky are horrible right now, and the linen sheets have enough body to them that they don't like stick.
Micah Riot:
They have an airy shape to them, almost like there's pockets of air in their structure.
Karin Riley:
Yes, and they have been fantastic.
Micah Riot:
Are you a top sheet girly or no?
Karin Riley:
I am, yeah, I've always been a top sheet person.
Micah Riot:
It's not something I grew up with. So when we moved here and I would go to someone else's house or you know a hotel and I'd always be like I'm tangled up in this thing, I can't move.
Karin Riley:
I hate this yes, I don't like. I am so picky. There are so many things I'm picky about, micah. I don't like this tucked in. I don't like I am so picky. There are so many things I'm picky about, micah. I don't like the sheet tucked in. I don't want my feet trapped.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, no, no, tucked in.
Karin Riley:
I agree, but I also don't like the sheets to be messy, so I'm one of those people that pulls the sheets up tight, pulls the duvet up and then folds the sheets over the top of the duvet.
Micah Riot:
So you have like that A barrier for your face and stuff.
Karin Riley:
Yeah, and it doesn't. The sheets don't move that way because they're wrapped around.
Micah Riot:
Well, they don't move that way, because you probably don't move that much. But if you fight with your bed, the entire night, several times that I sleep like a corpse. So I will fight my bed.
Karin Riley:
Fighting for a good night's sleep, yeah.
Micah Riot:
Where did you get your sheets? People might want to know.
Karin Riley:
I hesitate to say this because I'm afraid to say I haven't done a lot of research on the company.
Micah Riot:
Okay, you don't have to. We can keep it secret. Find your own damn sheets, people.
Karin Riley:
I'll tell you, but I want you to take it out if they're not sustainable. I'm going to look it up as soon as possible?
Micah Riot:
No, no, no, don't tell me. Tell me, when we tattoo.
Karin Riley:
Right, you can always add it to the comments later.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, and because I was person about the seat that you get slightly that one's not as big for me.
Karin Riley:
Where I sit is not as important to me. If there are just two of us, we're weirdos. James and I sit on the same side of the table or sit next to each other instead of each other yeah, liz, and I do that too yeah it. It's easier to have a conversation that way too. You're not shouting across a table. I don't have to be the person who sits facing the door or anything like that. If I'm traveling alone, I'm more picky about it, but no, it's not a huge issue to me.
Micah Riot:
Okay, my curiosity was satisfied. Good yeah, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. You're the best. There's nothing basic about you at all. I love you to pieces and I'm really really happy that you found me.
Karin Riley:
I'm happy to have found you too. I'm happy you accepted me as your client. I'm really, really happy that you found me. I'm happy to have found you too. I'm happy you accepted me as your client.
Micah Riot:
I'm rolling my eyes right now. Thank you.