This is Ink Medicine's second to last episode of the year!
And I interview Amy Zager. I've been hearing her name and seeing her work for years, and finally we meet.
Amy does incredibly bright and colorful and dynamic work (think Lisa Frank in the 90's!). I see her work on my clients and I see my clients in her chair. We have complimentary styles that a lot
of people who like my work also like her work in vice versa.
What she does is commonly called watercolor, but I think it's time for us to develop new language to talk about tattoo styles that don't fit into the traditional norms.
Amy is a pansexual femme, a mom, an award-winning artist. She was on Best Ink Season 3 back in the day and that's kind of what jump started her career. You'll hear us talking about it on the
pod.
We talk shop and industry gossip a little, and I really hope you enjoy our conversation.
Follow Amy on Instagram at:
https://www.instagram.com/painterlyfiend/
or find her on her website:
https://www.amyzager.com/
You can connect with me, Micah Riot, as well as see my tattoo art on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/micahriot/
Micah's website is www.micahriot.com
The podcast is hosted on Buzzsprout but truly lives in the heart of Micah's website at:
https://www.micahriot.com/ink-medicine-podcast/
episode transcript
Amy Zager:
Sitting up at the counter of a walk-in shop greeting the client that walks in, like I'm up in rotation, greeting the client that walks in, talking to them about the design, giving them a quote, doing like a little doodle on some printer paper just to get us going. They say yes, we get their ID. And I say, okay, cool, I'm gonna head on back and get set up for you. Oh, you're doing the tattoo.
Micah Riot:
Hello, my darlings. Hello, this is my Karate, and this is another episode of Ink Medicine Podcast. Today is December 23rd. This episode is late because, honestly, I did not feel like doing a whole lot this week. I worked a lot, tattooed a lot. Finally, sailor, my apprentice, tattooed herself last night. It was a really exciting moment for both of us. But the show must go on. So here we are with an episode where I interview Amy Zager or, if you follow her on Instagram, she is painterly fiend. Amy does incredibly bright and colorful and dynamic work. I see her work on my clients and I see my clients in her chair. We have complimentary styles that a lot of people who like my work also like her work in vice versa. What she does is commonly called watercolor, but I think it's time for us to develop new language to talk about tattoo styles that don't fit into the traditional norms. Amy is a pansexual femme, a mom, an award-winning artist. She was on Best Ink Season 3 back in the day and that's kind of what jump started her career. You'll hear us talking about it on the pod. She's just the sweetest person. She has a really cool studio. She really has an eye for decorating in bright colors, her aesthetic is similarly bright. Imagine a femme action figure with muscles and pink hair, wearing a galactic pair of overalls and like the sweetest, kindest face. That's Amy. It was really fun to talk, shop and industry with her and gossip a little bit, and I hope you enjoy our conversation. How long have you been tattooing?
Amy Zager:
I got into my apprenticeship 13 years ago. I was able to go full-time and leave my day-job gig work. I was a dog walker. It was wonderful. I was able to leave that. About six or seven months into my apprenticeship I graduated. I've been tattooing for a little over 10 years now like full-time legend artist.
Micah Riot:
Were you here in the beta the whole time? No, chicago. I feel like there was a moment when I started seeing your work on my clients and I'd be like who did that? They're like Amy. Where's Amy here in San Leandro? You were in San Leandro before, right. Yeah, I was like who is this person? I've never like I'd not seen your work until I did, and then I was like it was everywhere.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, that's as long as the clients say good things.
Micah Riot:
No, totally, I love sharing clients this person is super lovely, because I do some of this not quite as bright like all bright as you, but I do painterly work as well. So I think people are attracted to our aesthetics, and so I would keep seeing people who come to me for my type of watercolor, with your kind of watercolor, I don't know how you. How would you tell me? How would you describe your work, maybe in industry terms, but also client terms? What's your category?
Amy Zager:
I do have, I would say, an illustrative approach. These days it's leaning a little bit more towards realism. It really is a great question. I'm not I'm not entirely sure, I would say a super saturated bold. My work these days leans towards larger compositions, illustrative realism with kind of like a painterly watercolor vibe.
Micah Riot:
What do you think about the blanket term watercolor?
Amy Zager:
Oh, it does it covers.
Micah Riot:
So much right. I feel, like it's like what people think of is when they think of painterly tattoo work.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, yeah, I've seen some wonderful watercolor work, like when you said we've, like, had some client overlap. I've seen your work and then I only know on Instagram, but I think graphic ward or graphics ward in SF there's a few.
Micah Riot:
I don't let them.
Amy Zager:
And on Instagram. Why me genius? I think Brittany is in Oakland and just off the top of my head, some names that like are consistently doing abstract, like hyper colorful, also leaning like graphic minimalist there's such a range for that and that's just in like artists that jump to the top of my head that are doing it in like this one little corner of the world Watercolor has like there's there's misconceptions about it, I think in terms of how to approach it. Like bad watercolor you can always kind of identify when it's healed, with it being really washed out and kind of like the Nickelodeon splat logo comes to mind, where it doesn't really have much flow to it, versus good watercolor, which can still encompass so many styles and aesthetic approaches and subject matter, of course, and like also non representational but would always be saturated and true to the media that it's trying to recreate, with flow and a sense of gravity and good composition on the body and full saturation, of course, because that's like Tatooine 101 black saturation. Have a tattoo.
Micah Riot:
It's a formula Black yes, it's like you. If you watch any Ink Mastery, you'll be like that's the formula. My brand of ship was very informal. I was just thrown in was like go ahead, ask some questions.
Amy Zager:
Whoever's around that can be amazing to give you so many resources and also like really freaky, because how do you know even what to ask early on?
Micah Riot:
Just whatever shows up right.
Amy Zager:
Yeah.
Micah Riot:
Or you'd be like like. One time I was like, should I tattoo this ear? Like I'm so new, like the cartilage, like the cartilage, yeah. And my teacher, who was here and there once in a while, would show up at the shop. They were like, yeah, it's skin, just tattoo it, you're fine. If it's skin, you can tattoo it. How'd it go? Fine, it was. You know. I mean, for me it was just like people were happy, no matter what I did, and that gave me confidence. Nice, and I feel like I don't know if you feel this way, but I feel like each generation brings the qualities tattooing up a lot, like not just a little bit, but a lot. And so people who taught me were good for their time, but in the current pool of what's good, they're not good.
Amy Zager:
You know what I mean. And the kids these days the apprentices that are coming up right now.
Micah Riot:
How fast they get it. I don't know why do you think it works that way?
Amy Zager:
I think, I think, like you said, that, like with every generation we get new technology, we can like, refine the information, but do we though it's? The same shit.
Micah Riot:
I still use coils. The pigments, the pigments are better. But we've had eternal.
Amy Zager:
when I was starting out 15 years ago, yeah, yeah, my mentor also used moms and Talon's drawing ink, which is fine, like I've seen those things, seen those tattoos, and they are still there, I think, I think, along with the understanding kind of the design for it. Yeah, it is a multifaceted way that things are improving. I do wonder if just having the internet has expanded so much inspiration and you can so rapidly get new influences, whereas you know, maybe before you had the tattoo industry magazines and you had your mentor or whoever the handful of shops that maybe were in your town. And now that's like. I just came back from Austin, texas, where I took a one on one seminar with an artist I've been following for ages, who's from Venezuela and like it was. I never would have really known about this person or much less how to access their knowledge, were it not for Instagram.
Micah Riot:
Really, yeah, no, I think I agree that there's just more to look at and so we're more inspired, but I think there's something in the air. Yeah, like there's literally something different about it does seem that way Chemistry in the air, like the biology of the new apprentices, you know, like I look at women and queers. Yeah, you can say that it's women and queers. I think that's what it is.
Amy Zager:
I think there's this like creative spirit freedom that's pushing art within it.
Micah Riot:
Yeah.
Amy Zager:
And clients are looking for that.
Micah Riot:
Like.
Amy Zager:
I can't tell you how many clients write me that like I'm so glad I found someone that I already, just from social media, feel like I'll be comfortable with. I'm sure you get a lot of that as well. Yeah, so, having those people, having that trust, let's us push designs, try new things you know, within like reasonable boundaries of like we know it's gonna be a successful design, yeah, um yeah, I think client trust is also an aspect there as well.
Micah Riot:
Have you had an apprentice yet?
Amy Zager:
We uh, at the last studio I was with, we had an apprentice who I cannot claim is mine, um, but it was me and one other person working in the studio at the time. So there was a lot of a lot of tag teaming.
Micah Riot:
Mm-hmm, I liked mentoring. Yeah, would you do it here, mm?
Amy Zager:
Maybe, maybe. Final answer, maybe what would it?
Micah Riot:
be? What would it depend on?
Amy Zager:
Uh, honestly, my mental bandwidth yeah, I'm a mom and I travel so much. Okay, um, like nearly maxed out at my capacity to like physically be here every day and still spend time at the gym and doing things that like fulfill me outside of this space and like as fulfilling as being a mentor can be it's. I want to be in a position where I can do it the way I want to and give it 110% of me because, like balls to the wall with everything right.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, no, I mean watching your, like your Instagram. I'm like what pronouns to use I'm sorry she heard. Okay, I was like oh, she's like traveling, doing conventions, tattooing, clearly a lot. Like you just seem so busy, and like the sports that you do too, and I'm like how old are you?
Amy Zager:
Uh, 30, 36. God, why do I need to think about that? Oh yeah, we have to think about that these days.
Micah Riot:
I'm about to turn 40, so I really remember where I'm at. But I'm just like I'm just so tired. Recently, you know, like the last few years I've just been like my capacity for most things is just lower and maybe it's the pandemic, like the news of the world, all the stuff you know, but I'm just like heavy shit and your mom yeah.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, there is a lot of heavy shit happening that, like I don't know, this tattooing is my happy place. I look forward to coming to work, like excited on a Sunday night, knowing that I not like have to come in for work or I have to do homework for the next day. I get to and I feel like as long as, as long as it feels like that it's right, no matter how busy and how like crazy it is. But, yeah, keeping keeping up through the pandemic.
Micah Riot:
It chipped away at a lot of us didn't it and I think it shifted our energy levels in this way where, you know, it was like, okay, I was really unhappy not working. I was just like every day is the same, you know. And then when I went back, I was like, oh my God, I get to like see another person talk to the person and tattoo them, and so that was amazing.
Amy Zager:
It's like it's not just an identity or a job or an identity. It's such an outlet as an artist.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, but anyways yeah, but I was like tattooing one person a week at first because I was starting with my regulars before they really let us start. Yeah, because I just couldn't anymore and I couldn't afford to not anymore.
Amy Zager:
I mean we were still as an industry, we were still shut down long after all of the loan deferment had ended and after the additional unemployment income ended, like all of these programs ended and not every industry was cleared to open here in California, and that's fucking insulting.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, also the fact that they wouldn't let us get our vaccines while letting like servers or restaurants get their vaccines. Like we also have to work, you know, and like we also work with people. Like why are we not priority? Like I get it, we're not medical workers, but they let other service workers get chair vaccines.
Amy Zager:
We're a job with bills to pay Right. Let the people get the stuff that will keep us all safer.
Micah Riot:
It's funny that they would regulate us to the tune of $1,500 a year, or whatever it is, for the health department fees, but not actually give us right like the freedom to work. Yeah.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, that was insulting. It was really complicated. I am very progressive, I lean heavily liberal, I don't think that's any mystery. Oh my God, were my feelings around the pandemic complicated. And then I have a partner who, like early on we didn't really understand the virus. My partner was a kidney donor. So, my partner's hanging out with like one kidney and this like mysterious disease that's having people in the hospital and dying, and like these maddening numbers, and then like, okay, how do I, how do I walk between, like I need to be able to work, like or I will just mentally crumble, shrivel up and then physically die. Yes, but also with, like, how can we do this communally, safely, when the mask mandates were a thing, especially before the vaccines were released, and just having people willfully, belligerently, not wear a mask If you don't want to get vaccinated, okay, fine, but like, can you keep the next person safe?
Micah Riot:
People don't care about other people. Most people don't care about other people.
Amy Zager:
We do yeah.
Micah Riot:
Like this is a profession where you have to, you have to. Yeah, but during that time, yeah, like I was working. When they let us work again, I was working, or like before they let us work again, I was working on like one person a week, and then two people a week, and then, you know, three people a week, and then I was like this is great, like if I get to take all the time in the world to like draw and hang out with this person and not be in a rush for my next appointment, yeah, and so it created this. Yeah, so it created this week for me where now I'm like working. I have two days where I work a full day like two clients, and then two days where I work half days, and that feels like a soft life, it's nice. But then I'm like, oh, but I could make more money. You know, like I could get more clients, but then I feel more I will cost, yeah.
Amy Zager:
I know and your clients appreciate having you fresh and fulfilled Mm. Hmm, you can't put a price on that.
Micah Riot:
No, how much do you work?
Amy Zager:
I would typically work five days a week.
Micah Riot:
Mm, hmm.
Amy Zager:
I do occasionally pick up a weekend. I keep an after hours weekend rate for clients who just couldn't take off like the kind of nine to five. I call it the daycare hours that I need to work within when I travel. That all goes out the window. Oh my God. I've done guest spots where I've worked seven days straight and just like blissfully. But in that time it's super recharging because when I do those guest spots I arrange with my partner we've got like childcare stays back here I go solo and it's like, um, it's refreshing to just feel like it's an artist retreat, I guess, and I'm doing nothing but focusing on that craft.
Micah Riot:
Mm, hmm.
Amy Zager:
So, like I guess, recharging can look like all sorts of different things. It can look like diving full body into what you're doing, and it can also look like pacing yourself, mm hmm, and those two can exist like simultaneously, you know.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, I mean, that's what recharges you. Yeah, different things at different times too. So what about the sports? What sports do they do?
Amy Zager:
Powerlifting.
Micah Riot:
Okay, how do you?
Amy Zager:
do that.
Micah Riot:
I train, since we're both in open air, where do you train?
Amy Zager:
Yeah, I train for a really long time with Jesse Burdick. He is a wonderful human. I was in Dublin, california, since the pandemic and like kiddos entering school and everything, I'm just kind of flying solo. I have not competed since just before the pandemic. Again, like I've found so much bliss in work that I just don't have bandwidth to like run through a super intense training cycle. Yeah, but oh my God, powerlifting is so much friggin fun, mm. Hmm, so much fun.
Micah Riot:
What so you have a setup at home.
Amy Zager:
I do have a setup at home, okay, and utilize the finest 24 hour fitness in Castro Valley on a pretty regular basis.
Micah Riot:
You live in Castro Valley, yeah, yeah, okay. So I go to Brightside Barbell, which is a CrossFit. It's a CrossFit gym, but it's like heavy. And this is on lifting. Yeah, because Brooks the coach is, you know, competes and very passionate about powerlifting. So we do have a platform on the back that they just built. It's a pretty new gym. It's been like two years since they opened it, nice. But I've been following them around for about four because I found them at another CrossFit gym and was like you're cool, you're queer, I'm going to follow you. So I just followed them around. The way, finally opened their gym, and now I'm there.
Amy Zager:
Oh, radically fit in Oakland. I've visited them a couple of times. I was supposed to do I was supposed to do, I think, a deadlift fundraiser. I ended up, I think, getting sick the day of the competition, but the fundraising went wildly well. I know they're another good one to follow.
Micah Riot:
Cool. Yeah, no I know it's the queer gym. Yeah, there's like a few queer gyms in Oakland. Yeah, they're cool. They're cool, totally love what they're doing. I need to feel like I'm dying when I'm working out. Yeah, same, and they're very kind to their clients.
Amy Zager:
Yes, that is such a good way to put it. They're like, yeah, you're getting the strength training, you're getting like a gentler programming, and then, if you're someone who just wants to drop, set till death.
Micah Riot:
Find that space. Yeah, find that space, it's probably CrossFit. Yeah, and it's very, very queer and very just cool folk you know.
Amy Zager:
You'll link them in the podcast, right?
Micah Riot:
I will link them in the podcast, but also specifically to you if you're interested.
Amy Zager:
Yay, yes.
Micah Riot:
You could also do drop-ins there too, if you wanted to, and they do competitions as well.
Amy Zager:
I do miss CrossFit. When I travel, I drop into CrossFit gyms. It's the best hour of the day. You just like turn your brain off. You listen to someone what they tell you to do and then you do it yeah.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, I can do it on my own. I have to do it Someone else.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, and the community energies, and like cheering you on to max out, cheering the next person on to finish the WAD it's great energy.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, yes, a good gym has great energy. Yes, it's true, I've been to many, and this one's one of the better, for sure. Nice, yeah, okay. So back to tattooing. Okay, sorry, yes, no, no, this is good. I want it to be a portion of your full self. I'm just this one part of you, though it's a big part. How did you find your style? Or do you remember when that started to be, yeah, primarily what you started to do.
Amy Zager:
Very right around the end of my apprenticeship there were some new styles coming out. I guess the end of my apprenticeship kind of overlapped with Facebook becoming starting to be used for businesses and people networking who weren't just like you had to have a dot edu email and then Instagram and started to see tattoo artists from all over the world and I still remember finding watercolor work and just being like oh my God, this, this stuff is so different and it's so pretty and it's so colorful.
Micah Riot:
I don't want to do it. Do you remember who it was, or like. Justin Nordin for sure, was one of the first.
Amy Zager:
Oh my gosh. Yes, and I got tattooed by him over the summer.
Micah Riot:
Oh, really Like where.
Amy Zager:
Oh, it's on my shoulder, I have my bear.
Micah Riot:
It's so clearly him Right. Yeah, it's so obvious.
Amy Zager:
Wins essential. I have a perfect Nordin healed grate Nice. Some shit was talked about putting such light colors up on like the very top of my trap, so I have to sunscreen it like mad. I'm part native and get very, very rich, rich pigmentation in the summer, so I have to take very good care of that. Okay, I've been following like sidetrack. I've been following Justin's work for so freaking long and just like especially in the last shoot, maybe like five years when did he come out? As queer yeah, it was only a handful of years ago, or more than that, yeah and polyamorous also.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah maybe five.
Amy Zager:
So I just like that totally sealed the deal and like the energy that he puts out on social media and like the consistent style of the work and the color and the layering and the geometry, like I love all of it. And like got an appointment, flew into Denver, drove four hours to Grand Junction and like you know that saying of never meet your heroes, this was the opposite of that. As 180. From that, I felt so comfortable and well treated. I fell asleep while getting worked on. I was that comfy and safe and the conversations that we had were great. The nap was great. The tattoo is great, His whole. I cannot speak highly enough of this dude.
Micah Riot:
It was all in one session.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like six and a half hours actually under the needle, over like an eight hour day, lunch breaks and snack breaks and stuff. Other watercolor artists I know everyone on Instagram just by their little thumbnail. I have ADHD so I don't really read names out loud in my head. They're kind of just like a marmour.
Micah Riot:
I'm not even like asking specific folks, but like when you started, I did kind of ask that when you started finding, like I remember, when you know, when I first started seeing work that looked different from the track work of coast, it was on Tatrix. Do you remember that blog? Where you ever? Did you ever look at that blog? Yes, I'm having like the weirdest ATTX. Attrx.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, oh my God, yeah, I mean, it's like a memory unlocked.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, it was like my go to. I was just like pouring over it being like I want. I want to do all this work. Like where are these people?
Amy Zager:
It was like Berlin Brazil.
Micah Riot:
Russia, also Poland, Like I mean, there's still kind of a lot of people.
Amy Zager:
Yes, Italy has a bunch, yeah, doing that, really interesting stuff.
Micah Riot:
But it was. I talked to Morgan on the podcast, morgan English, who started that blog at some point. You should listen to that if you have.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, let's go back.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, they're really interesting human. But she's not a tattoo artist, but she was. She like created this job for herself, where she was like putting really cool work out there when it wasn't really, when Instagram wasn't really a thing yet, Anyway, but that's where I found my first like watercolor, my first abstract work, my first just like more artistic tattoos that look different. You know, I was just curious, like did you find it through those same channels or I shoot.
Amy Zager:
yeah, god, there's probably other other spaces that I'm not even remembering because it was like a lifetime ago.
Micah Riot:
So you started playing around with it.
Amy Zager:
I remember that you have to convince your first client to try it. Someone brought me a watercolor tattoo. It was oh, what's the title of the Da Vinci sketch of the man?
Micah Riot:
with like the two, like the perfect man, yeah, yeah, thank you. That thing, that's not what it's called, but you know, yeah, people will know With like the perfect ratios and stuff. The perfect ratio, man, yeah.
Amy Zager:
And someone brought in a tattoo that was done of this sketch with watercolor kind of overlaid behind it, and while I would never do this now, they wanted me to recreate this tattoo and I was over the freaking moon to do it. And as soon as that hit my portfolio and hit Instagram and Facebook and that started to bring in not like immediately, like a landslide of clients wanting it, but it gave me just like just one or two. And then I'd post those and reel in the next, the next couple in the next couple. Yeah, you never forget your first though, right?
Micah Riot:
Yeah, what was your first, yeah, hummingbird here on the chest? It was for a child that didn't come to be and it was yeah, it was a really sweet, very soulful, very like tearful session and I made it up Like I didn't, I hadn't seen anything like it, you know. So she was like I just want to be soft and like no black outline, just very, you know, very aerial and ephemeral. And so we did, and then that brought me, you know, more yeah.
Amy Zager:
Oh, when you, when you find something that like is is unique, done well and just it's got, it's got. The thing that, like you, is Janice LeCouay, you couldn't put your finger on it, the thing that it draws people in, that authenticity maybe unique authenticity- Before there was an overabundance of everything on the internet.
Micah Riot:
Ooh, maybe, yeah, like it was. It stood out because there was so little like it, yeah, and now there's everything, and it's also everything in the way where you can't just get through it, like, well, okay, there's everything, but here's everything in Oakland, like it's not, like that, it's just a big like pot of ads. Yeah.
Amy Zager:
And you can't search multiple hashtags, like you couldn't search watercolor tattoo Oakland artist, lgbt friendly. Like you can't cluster all those. You have to do like individual searches for all of it and maybe see what overlaps there's. There are a couple, I think. Tattoo like find your next artist websites that are trying to improve on that.
Micah Riot:
I just would never use one of those myself, would you?
Amy Zager:
No, I was yes, exactly like, because you of course, have to pay to be right listed on it.
Micah Riot:
And then. And then it's like well, how are you? So you're just going to put everybody who pays on there?
Amy Zager:
You know how honest is it. And then there's, you know the Again finding like within your genre and your area, finding the good stuff like finding not, you know someone who's paid, but they're working out of their garage and doing terrible watered down work with questionable sanitation practices.
Micah Riot:
Right and clints don't always know right.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, ink Master, in a weird way, has helped with that, as like as much as we all probably talk about, like the TV shows to show what makes a good tattoo, at least in terms of fundamentals, right.
Micah Riot:
Is that something you would ever do? I already did.
Amy Zager:
Have you tried? I already did, did you? I was on Best Ink, season 3. Were you. It was 10 years ago.
Micah Riot:
Okay, I will look for you, don't? I haven't seen them all.
Amy Zager:
No, it's way too much to watch them all Best Ink. What was it like? It was fun. I was only like I was barely out of my apprenticeship during filming.
Micah Riot:
I was maybe like a year as, like I can't believe you were like that secure to be like I'm going to go on TV.
Amy Zager:
I was so, so, like if it were. If it were to happen now and all of the like, the seasons and everything had already come out and I was offered this opportunity at one year out of an apprenticeship, I would have been like no, let me like, let me get better and I'll reapply, because this isn't going to be like a once in a lifetime opportunity. But, at the time there was season one and two of Best Ink and I was initially um. I was in the interviews for season two, that's the one with Teresa Sharp who won?
Micah Riot:
Oh, she's amazing.
Amy Zager:
Oh my God, so good. I'm really really glad I didn't have to compete with her. I would have been the first one out, but, um, yeah, I got. I got called back for season three and Ink Master, which was like the like twin brother, sister, I guess, show. Um, there was Best Ink which was on the oxygen network and Ink Master was on Spike and they're on by the same parent company. They just wanted to do one that was like Hannah Acheson and Sympionic Helly and like Lovely and Pretty and then like James Navarro.
Micah Riot:
Yes, okay, and they had Dave Navarro and, uh, I like Best of Ink. Now I want to watch it.
Amy Zager:
It was only the three seasons, all of the attacks. Yeah, thank you, um, only the three seasons of that. So I um, I was on the last one, I broke it.
Micah Riot:
That's how, that's why they never did it again. You were, you were it.
Amy Zager:
Yeah.
Micah Riot:
Um so what was it?
Amy Zager:
like it was really fun. It reminded me a little bit of like, in a weird way, of being at summer camp. Okay, you wake up and you go downstairs and you have breakfast in like the hotel lobby, and they throw you on a van and they take you to do arts and crafts. And you have lunch and they throw you on a van again and take you to do more arts and crafts and then you have, like your you know little critique or whatever like around the campfire at night and then you go to sleep and do it all again.
Micah Riot:
The arts and crafts were tattooing or or the projects and the tattooing. So it was very similar structure like an Ink Master yeah.
Amy Zager:
Exactly yeah.
Micah Riot:
So how? How long did you last?
Amy Zager:
Four episodes.
Micah Riot:
Okay, that's a lot.
Amy Zager:
For that show, for my patootie being a little like yearling artist, yeah. I remember the tattoos you did Okay, so stay curious on that. Can I lie and say, no, I don't remember, that's fine. Yes, it's not a lot. I Don't know if it's changed, but there is like a daily Reimbursement or daily compensation that they give you, and it would never have come close to paying rent.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, of course not. So there's. They have to give you something, right, they have to give you some minimum wage, whatever what.
Amy Zager:
What did end up paying was right after that aired, I Went from being booked Mostly on the weekends, maybe a couple weeks out, to having my books overflowing for Ten months, I think, at the longest. So yeah, we're gonna do it all again. I totally would is that?
Micah Riot:
do you feel like that's how you got the start of attraction? Yeah, absolutely.
Amy Zager:
I, and these days, you know, like we were saying, apprentices are Coming into a totally new world with, like Frickin, rapid-fire skills right out of the gate, and our leveraging social media have that understanding to market themselves which, like when I was coming out of my apprenticeship, was you weren't really marketing yourself until you were, like, already in name. How did you get to be a name? How did you get to have a style? Well, that's the mystery. You just do whatever walks in the door and see what sticks, and Doing that show and getting the even like small amount of publicity. After that, yeah, it was like rocket boosters on my back, which in turn brought me More work. That was more in my style, which let me improve it more, and it was just like this wonderful snowballing, the waterfall of more work, better work, more work, better work, more work, better work. For Years, and now nobody remembers that I was on TV until now, which was great but so, so, okay, so you are here out of your apprenticeship.
Micah Riot:
You already started to do your. I'm gonna say it for the audience because I want them to get a visual. But we just discussed how Lisa Frank is not, is not it, but just the visual. Yeah, that's super bright. Like yeah, yeah, the ultra bright. Often that's cute, not always necessarily cute, but cute, attractive. Yeah, chinese style. Like that's that's what I want people to imagine.
Amy Zager:
Like sparkly unicorns and Like the stuff you had on your trapper keeper in the 90s right, yeah, so that style. Stickers and beanie babies and Saturday morning cartoons for sure.
Micah Riot:
So you started doing that already by that point.
Amy Zager:
I was definitely leaning that way, yeah, and the more you do, the more people come to you.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, but they started that early, like 10 what? Nine years ago now?
Amy Zager:
Yeah, yeah, about nine years ago.
Micah Riot:
Do you ever do work that you? You're like I'm happy to do this black and white, black and gray Portrait, but I'm not gonna put it on my website or like my portfolio. Do you ever do work that you don't put up?
Amy Zager:
No, not really usually. The only reason it doesn't get posted is I've gotten a terrible photograph of it. They're, but I'm in a super, super lucky place where, among all of the Consultation forms, the new inquiries that come to me, I can say yes to the stuff that I just know I'm gonna knock out of the park for someone and I can, you know, decline and like refer to other artists for the stuff that just isn't, isn't 110%, like I'm gonna nail this.
Micah Riot:
But what if you're like I'd love to just play with some Blockwork geometry.
Amy Zager:
Oh, I have a partner for that.
Micah Riot:
Okay, just tattoo my partner, but you don't okay, so you don't, you don't like, because that's my issue, you know with it because I grew up doing everything. Yeah, and whatever walks in the door walks in door I still kind of do that, like I'll maybe put my spin on it, but it's still yeah, everything. And so a lack of niching is Not serving me very well in, like, the marketing way People don't really see my work is like one style it's who don't know me, yeah. But I'm curious like do you only, do you only do your niche? I?
Amy Zager:
you don't like my Instagram, you take a look at, I think, like in the last you know, six pictures. I've got four different styles that I do consistently, yeah, but it they are for fairly different styles. The the doctor strange piece that I did is a direction that I really do want to move, and it's got elements of like a little bit of painterly, a little bit of that like graphic halftone, a little bit of style mash-up going on.
Micah Riot:
Which I also see it with you. Yeah, those things, yeah.
Amy Zager:
But if you held that one up next to. I want to say it was from earlier this year. It was non-representational, just Geometric shapes and color flow, you like. Of course that's not the same artist. I, what are you? What are you talking about?
Micah Riot:
Well, I probably would say it's the same of this, yeah right it's for For the uneducated. I just look at things, yeah, just like a glance. There's pop culture references here and not over here.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, and then like the animal portraits. The animal portraits have a lot of consistency across them and, oh my god, that's some of my favorite work to do, mm-hmm, if anybody needs an animal portrait, call me. Will do often. Yeah, like nature and good stuff, yeah.
Micah Riot:
What's your relationship with marketing and social media and those things?
Amy Zager:
Why would you hurt me with these?
Micah Riot:
people want to know. Yeah, yeah, it's me, I want to know it.
Amy Zager:
It's a part-time job, right? Sometimes more than a part-time job. Did you want another part-time job? No, I didn't. I don't want to know all this stuff about the algorithm. I don't want to know how to like leverage the times that I post. I don't want to know how to like leverage trending audio. I don't want to know this. I don't want to know how to edit a video, but you do, but I do.
Micah Riot:
I'm cringing like so hard just thinking about how it's funny because you'd be like this is set of skills I learned you think it would add to my like set of skills, but every 12 year old has better set of skills, mm-hmm stuff than we do.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, my, I'm wild. Seven year old will film videos of like these little pretend games and like toys talking to each other and do cut scenes With them.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, and they probably look amazing. And there are areas you should get your seven year old to Do your social media and just like pay them in candy.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, I'm using AI to help out with hashtags. That's been. That's been useful. Ai has some really great uses and some really terrible ones. Oh god, is that a separate conversation for us?
Micah Riot:
No, are you feeling about it? It's fine about the AI stuff. I'm afraid of it. So I haven't really. So I'm taking an SEO course, oh okay, which is really complicated, yeah that'll be easier. It's like a six months long course. I think I have access to it forever, which is great because I am so behind. There's so much to it and I was like, well, if I'm not gonna become Like a really famous Instagram, that I might as well do this SEO course, because I've been trying. You know I can't get past my 5000 followers like I've been trying for many years.
Amy Zager:
Do you boost?
Micah Riot:
posts no. Try boosting posts. I refuse to. That's why I refuse to. I've tried. And then when you stop paying for it, they won't, they'll just like cut you off completely.
Amy Zager:
I've not had that experience.
Micah Riot:
It's my experience. I'm sorry yeah like I'll like pay For a couple and then not, and then they'll just I'll check my next post will just like having no reach at all the.
Amy Zager:
the reach has been and this is Like so many industries are talking about it Um, that for small creators, the reach is down across the board. Um, reels were, for a minute, the way to go, mm-hmm. I remember like now it's this curly, now it's a side story things, yeah, yeah, and it's leaning a lot more towards the time that people spend looking at the damn thing on their screen and and um, followed by the time they spend either interacting with the post directly or sending it to a friend, reposting it to their own stories. Uh, commenting and liking now are much further down. They would rather have someone send it on to their followers in the algorithm ranking, then Give it a nice comment and say I liked this. Thumbs up right.
Micah Riot:
I mean, see, this is where I'm just gonna let things just be as they are. So I've tried to study it. I have taken some real courses. I know like I have a friend who does. We made friends because of the podcast, but they are a Marketing Instagram marketing like guru, mm-hmm. So follow them and they're just like keep posting, don't worry about the algorithm, just keep posting. Try different things, keep posting are people finding you? I have enough clients, I'm fine.
Amy Zager:
You know like that's so what are we? Are we like quibbling over how many followers we have because you can just buy those. You can buy those.
Micah Riot:
So, no, I don't want to buy followers, but I want to create some security for a future when there are even more tattoo artists, there's even more AI, there's even more bots, right? So that's why I'm doing the SEO thing. Yeah, because it's so much like local based and that's it's hard. But so one of the things I was going to tell you that I was like so she's having us, the teacher, she's having us do research keywords and the way you do it is you get this like plug-in for the for google, and then you like tap the word in and it shows you how many people have searched that word in your area and then it shows you, like how it compares against other keywords in the same Like genre in your area and then it shows you how much somebody would pay to have that result pop up like it's got all this like really fine tune information that I think you would not Find unless you knew how to find it right with this like special plug-in and you like pay a few bucks a month for it, whatever. So I typed in like queer tattoo artist Oakland. Apparently no one's searching it because it's like bigger numbers, right? So Our niche of being like queer friendly Is not a thing that you can like build a business upon. I'm still doing it, but I was gonna say I like people like don't find you. Based on that you know, and like I try, I'd like type to the queer tattoo Oakland and found like diving swallow.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, yeah you know, uh, I know for google I'm able to put LGBT friendly uh in like my google business profile. Yeah, for whatever that gets me right. Um.
Micah Riot:
Yelp also. I think you can do like woman owned, lgbt, yeah, or whatever.
Amy Zager:
I Don't have a great answer for it. Um, there are artists who are Phenomenal, just phenomenal, like world-class, booked out for ages, that have a handful of thousand followers and get thousands, handful of thousands of likes on their. They get, like very heavy interaction with their posts 100 comments, 2000 likes, and that's with only having, say, like 6000 followers. And then there are artists where they'll have 50,000 followers and their post will get Maybe a hundred, 200 likes and interactions a dozen or two dozen comments. Uh, so that like that, that doesn't necessarily social media success doesn't necessarily relate to real world success and people actually reaching out to you and contacting you.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, absolutely, I'm not seeing it that way. It's just that there is a level of security in being more known and being searchable and having people see your work. They go to your page and you have a lot of followers. They're more likely to follow you also. So this person's good. Many people think this person's good enough to follow. There's all these psychological pieces in that.
Amy Zager:
Is there also that I have found the diamond in the rough? They?
Micah Riot:
have. Sometimes. That's how I follow people. But, yeah, okay, that's a way, but also just doing my own thing as a way, making podcasts as a way, making stickers as a way.
Amy Zager:
Straight up word of mouth. One happy client, that's one happy client telling all of their friends you're putting your business card on people. When you give them a great experience, then like, oh, who does your tattoos and your name is the first one on their tongue when they're asked about all the artwork on their body.
Micah Riot:
So yes, and also because we're still all servants of the algorithm. So do you do? I see you have some equipment. Is that a filter? Do you do the? Because your work is so bright, the glare is an issue. I know how it is. What do you do? So you do those kinds of things? Do you want me to?
Amy Zager:
show you. Yeah, I want to see. If I talk loud, it'll still be on this is At this point.
Micah Riot:
Amy walked me over to where she had her set up for photography and I just got so very excited to play with her stuff and look at her filters. And it's definitely helpful because I don't have coworkers in the way that other people do and so I have to do my own research and take my own chances when I buy new equipment. So having being able to talk to other people who've been tattooing for a long time and who have new toys new to me, toys that will make all of our lives easier and will make showing off my accomplishments that much better and easier, I'm grateful. Are there. Do you have other photography, anything or any other? Like when you edit yourself? Like do you have other ways that you specifically do it for your specific style?
Amy Zager:
I try to photograph people on my white backdrop here or, if it's, if I'm someplace that's like busier, I will just tone down the background down to like black or dark blue or something, just so the work really pops. I try to stay away from doing like over photoshopping or like doing a weird like green screen cutout around just the tattoo. I feel like and maybe am I old Like that just seems like oh, if you photoshopped it that much, you've probably doctored the tattoo itself. It just seems a little disingenuous.
Micah Riot:
I mean you can tell if it's doctored yeah, like we can tell if it's like just the basic little bit to just make it look how it does in life yeah, if it's like beyond.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, you've got like the perfect procreate micron outline around your tattoo.
Micah Riot:
Right and there's like smoothing tools.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, that surface blur that like saran wrap look to it.
Micah Riot:
Do you follow truth tattoo fairy I?
Amy Zager:
do I love, love that page.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, yeah because sometimes clients will bring that shit in and be like I want to. You know, this is one of my inspirations and you'll be like that's not even a tattoo and that one is photoshopped Like that's not a tattoo and that's yeah.
Amy Zager:
Have you gotten AI tattoos brought to you as references yet?
Micah Riot:
Yeah, no, but I'm I feel like that's coming. It is coming the whole thing with. I am concerned about just designs like people yeah, people grabbing. I mean we know that we don't tattoo designs brought in like we most of us don't do that and clients will still try. But I'm also concerned about other tattoo artists using AI to create their artwork for them.
Amy Zager:
It's. I mean it's. It's a lot like using, you know, an existing tattoo as your design inspiration. Okay, your client feels, you know, say it's like a tiger face. I just posted in my want to do some a design of a tiger. Okay, so we've got this like it's an existing tattoo or it's an AI tattoo. What, what about this speaks most to you? We've got you know the. You want the tiger face in profile. Cool, got you. We'll, you know, get a stock photo reference or something, the color palette, the way it's composed on a body, and that can change. You know, like they, they have something on someone's left arm and they want it going on their right leg. Now you have to have a totally different tattoo. So, using AI in the same way as like reference collecting, which just kind of add it to your design arsenal, because none of it is really usable, as is right for now, for now, for now, I have had this weird. Let me know if you've like found the same. I went to Google and looking for was a flower, was a particular flower, and I put in Plumeria flower stock image references, because those give you like high resolution and they're nice and clean and well photographed. And in my stock reference search started to pop up blatant AI photographs where the flower had like too many petals or clearly the wrong leaves and like luckily I know enough about it to like not grab those pictures, but they're starting to infiltrate like our very real photograph collection of references. Right, what the fuck.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, and I was thinking about that because you see them looking very soft. You know they have a very soft quality to them, but I feel like they're gonna start to look realistic like a photograph, and maybe they already do. Yeah, so far I can tell they're like that, have that very soft, yeah, I feel it's too brushy, I feel like I didn't touch upon any of like your personal life, and that's fine. You don't have to go there.
Amy Zager:
I'm in an open book.
Micah Riot:
How do you feel like you're like? I don't know any of your labels, how you identify, but if you want to talk about that and how that's informed your life as a tattoo artist, I go to conventions and all that, so you know socially within tattooing, I think the biggest I identify, or that has presented interesting hiccups along the way, is just like being a woman presenting femme.
Amy Zager:
That, oh man. I've had countless experiences sitting up at the counter of a walk-in shop greeting the client that walks in, like I'm up in rotation. Greeting the client that walks in, talking to them about the design, giving them a quote, doing like a little doodle on some printer paper just to get us going. They say yes, we get their ID and I say, okay, cool, having a head on back and get set up for you. Oh, you're doing the tattoo.
Micah Riot:
Like why would you go through that whole process with them?
Amy Zager:
I don't know if you were just like they just assume counter girl. Yeah, I apprenticed at a studio that had female artists available, like in the window it was. It was that big In the window. Yeah, it was like on the one of the you know the placards of like black and gray color tattoo. Women artists available, piercings available Okay, yeah, like a menu. Yeah, yeah, it's no. No studio is like that now, but it was then. And I would say now, with, like, more information, that I'm pansexual but I always default to bisexual. I think that's more like a generational thing of like yeah, everyone's really hot. Am I blushing? Came out in God middle school, maybe, like seventh or eighth grade, I just knew that everybody was hot. It was like it didn't. None of that really mattered to me. That has been, I would say, putting myself out there in that way and being part of the queer community. It brings me people like me, people who are comfortable confiding in me, even if they're not out in the world. World, they'll, you know, in our conversations and they're in my chair, we'll have some like like something, something to relate over. I found a lot of my clients like that's a draw. I am very happy to say that my sexuality has not presented any speed bumps in the industry, but at the same time I'm white passing. I present very femme. It's that that tempers a lot of it, because it's like well, who doesn't love lesbian porn?
Micah Riot:
Well, there's some hot lady privilege right there. Thank you, yes, you know like. Yes, I mean I feel also like in the two industry, things like on TV you'll see amazing tattooists but also have themselves also be hot, like they don't. They do sometimes allow people who look more average into the TV world, but not very often and they usually tend to not stay very long. Yeah, I feel like it's an issue.
Amy Zager:
Like there's a very looksist industry especially for women that love and then can look, however, no one gives a shit. Yeah, that that like. Yeah, I don't want to like body and skin and shape. Shame the men, but they can get away with a lot.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, they, no one gives a shit how they look. Yeah, Like if they're amazing at tattooing, that's all, that's all they care about, but women have to be hot while being great at tattooing. If Ryan Ashley and Kelly Doty were reversed in looks, Kelly Doty would have won Ink Master 100%.
Amy Zager:
I love Kelly, so much.
Micah Riot:
She is one of the most amazing tattoo like. Her work is so perfect.
Amy Zager:
And like personality just like comes shining through with like yes, I'm accessible and I'm weird and talk to me and I want to like invite you to be weird with me. It just like it brings out that energy, I mean all the women were amazing on that season.
Micah Riot:
Ryan Ashley is amazing too.
Amy Zager:
I've seen her work like in person, but like if you look at them really closely Kelly Doty's better. I have to agree with you. Yeah, yeah, it's very, very different work, very different, but just quality wise, like precision wise, it's better. And she can do anything she chooses to do her new school shit.
Micah Riot:
but she can do anything.
Amy Zager:
Absolutely. That is really shitty to see and not see in the like bigger mainstream media. The casting choices of all of that, the freaking oh my gosh, another separate conversation. That'll be like a total detour. The Inked Magazine cover girl thing, which I have like a laundry list of shit to talk about. What they're doing, taking advantage of all of the free content, like the amount of free advertising that they are getting from these women and fems pushing and pushing for more votes. They are getting so much more free advertising from that than they pay anyone ever and I'm livid about it. Do not give these motherfuckers free content. Make your money. Get on only fans Anyways. Yes, jesus, I have feelings, I have big feelings about this. I like similar to suicide girls in the way they've like farmed the hopefuls and had them basically drive all of their marketing for free with like this, like you might be the one a month, and then they're releasing like three and four sets an hour that you're supposed to like scramble for.
Micah Riot:
Were you a part of that community.
Amy Zager:
I was right at the turn of when they were doing yes or no, you send it into their team and they would accept you or not as a suicide girl. And when they turned it into the hopeful rat race and I took one look at it and said, well, you got my one set, you're not getting anymore. That's it.
Micah Riot:
I was always like what's up with that name? Suicide girls? I mean I know what they meant to do, but I was still like why? There's enough fucking depressed.
Amy Zager:
you know, women and I mean, I'm an elder emo, like I never got the hair I don't have like the right face shape for that makeup rower. But man, did I just give it my all to try. Oh my gosh, we were okay, I was. I was down that rabbit hole to circle back to unconventional beauties. Was that where we were?
Micah Riot:
Mm. Hmm, well, just that there's a looks privilege in the tattoo industry for a woman.
Amy Zager:
Yes, I think I think that is very, very true in like the big media, but I do know personally, totally like see him on the street every, every body, beautiful women and queers who are crushing it business wise. They're not going to get the same mainstream like TV production marketing right. Not not today, not this year, maybe in our lifetimes.
Micah Riot:
I mean, we're also so far away from being like mainstream media. And now it's all online and people like TikTok doesn't care how you look. Yeah, that's pretty cool.
Amy Zager:
I'm seeing people exactly.
Micah Riot:
I'll see like a video of somebody being like really saying something really great, really smart, and the comments are fine. They're not like you're ugly shut up like how it used to be. It's the kids are. The kids are right, yeah, yeah. So we're moving towards that, I think.
Amy Zager:
I think so too, and hopefully with, like the TikToks, the Instagram, the kind of like you know, only fans the independent ability to market yourself however you choose. That that is going to make it better for everybody.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, the good and the bad of it, right, like, on one hand, people get more voices, on the other hand, we're all just things now like we're all just like our attention to what's being sold yeah.
Amy Zager:
I ask people okay cool, are you comfortable with me doing some photo video for social media content? Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean I've got my security camera in here going but like that doesn't save anything. But and most people are totally fine with it, it's in my consent form or whatever.
Micah Riot:
But I like.
Amy Zager:
I like to ask every time. But it's content, it's, it's my portfolio, that's I want to show like the best of the best. And if that means, you know, I'm spending two or three weeks doing nothing but chipping away, session by session, at a couple of finished products, then I post them and that's great and my portfolio is going to look wonderful. But I have to have contents in between those like finished portfolio pieces and that's weird to me.
Micah Riot:
Yeah still. You have to keep going. Yeah, because if you drop it, it'll drop you.
Amy Zager:
Yeah, so now I'm like I'm filming stickers and I'm taking video of like gifts that clients have made me to like say thank you over the holiday season, and I've got all that like lined up and ready to preview for the next couple of weeks.
Micah Riot:
Yeah, yeah, You're very creative in your social media approach. Thank, you. Yeah, yeah, I admire.
Amy Zager:
I'm saving tons of things that as I scroll and I see something that I'm interested in, I save it. I say I want to do that with my stuff and just give myself like a constant to do list of kind of like there's tattoo inspiration, there's now content inspiration. I threw up in my mouth a little bit saying that just now, when I'm sorry.
Micah Riot:
I hear that. I know I have the same thing. I have stuff to say but I'm like. I could work with that, work with that format. Yeah, yeah, you know it's, it is what it is. Well, wrap us up here. I so appreciate your time.
Amy Zager:
No, it's been so wonderful talking to you. Yeah, I want to like. I want to hear more about your experiences as well.
Micah Riot:
We can do this again and I'm like you probably have ideas for the podcast.
Amy Zager:
I might.
Micah Riot:
I might, I might. You might have friends that I could interview.
Amy Zager:
Oh, almost certainly yes. Do you like to do in person or are you down with like um video calls and stuff? Okay, cool Then. Yeah. Yeah, I've got a few.
Micah Riot:
Tell the people where they can find you. I will link all that too, but say it and your name, your username on Instagram, and what kind of work that you are really calling some work that you'd love to do this coming year.
Amy Zager:
Okay, god, I hope I can remember that list. I am Amy Zager. You can find me at www.amyzager.com. That's Z like a zebra. I'm also on Instagram. Tiktok an assortment of social media is all of that. You will find me at painterly fiend. F I E N D. I do vibrant color, watercolor inspired work, pet portraits and pop culture, comic book art, marvel, cinematic Universe art, star Wars, saturday morning cartoons bring me Teenage Mutant, ninja Turtles, lisa Frank, lucky Charms and Fur Babies. I love it all.
Micah Riot:
Darlings, I hope you enjoyed this episode with Amy. I hope you felt like a little fly on the wall of two artists talking shop and it was fun for you. I am ready to wrap this year up almost next week. Look out for an episode where I recount all of the ways in which this year was good, because many things were not good, but this year was also good in certain ways and there were things accomplished and there were things done that I'm proud of. So I'm going to recount those out loud for you as a little piece of inspiration for you to look back at your year and see the things about your year that were good and helpful and were accomplishments. I love you very much. Thanks for listening. Please review, subscribe. Really, it really helps us out. I say it every time. It's true there have not been any new reviews, so if you would be the next new review, I would love it so much I'd love it forever. Okay, until next week.