Today, I'm presenting you with a conversation with Megan Lowe, a Bay Area dancer, choreographer, performer, aerialist, singer, songwriter, filmmaker, teacher, and administrator of Chinese and Irish descent. 

A couple of weeks ago, my partner and I attended a Megan Lowe Dances performance. It was at the ODC Theater and it was called Gathering Pieces of Peace. 
There were four mindblowingly skilled dancers, all of mixed -race identity, and the performance was about reckoning with the pieces of your identity, making peace with those pieces. 

As a person who is not of mixed -race identity, but an immigrant in a different context here in the US, than I was back where I came from, I can always relate to having your identity be fractured, be scattered, having to gather up the pieces of it. 

I was delighted to notice that in Gathering Pieces of Peace there was a thread of conversation about tattoos throughout the entire performance.

When it was over, the friend who invited my partner and I to the performance turned to me and said, Megan would be perfect for your podcast. And I said, I would love that. we got connected and we made it happen and here is our conversation. 

Megan and I talk about tattoos of course, but also belonging, identities, community building, relationship creating, and such. 

You can find Megan Lowe on her website at:
https://www.meganlowedances.com/
And on Instagram: 
https://www.instagram.com/mlowedancekitty/

You can connect with me, Micah Riot, as well as see my tattoo art on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/micahriot/

Micah's website is www.micahriot.com 
The podcast is hosted on Buzzsprout but truly lives in the heart of Micah's website at:
https://www.micahriot.com/ink-medicine-podcast/

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello, my darlings, hello. This is Micah Riot here with Ink Medicine Podcast. It is Friday, october 29th. Today I am presenting you with a conversation with Megan Lowe, a Bay Area dancer, choreographer, performer, aerialist, singer, songwriter, filmmaker, teacher and administrator of Chinese and Irish descent. A couple of weeks ago, my partner and I happily attended a Megan Lowe dancer's performance. It was at the ODC and it was called Gathering Pieces of Peace. There were four gorgeous dancers, all of mixed-race identity, and the dance piece was about reckoning with the pieces of your identity, making peace with those pieces. The way the dancers used the space struck me as unusual and hauntingly beautiful. They moved about the floor, the wall, the chairs that were empty, in front of the audience. It was really an amazing thing to be drawn into. As a person who is not of mixed-race identity, but as an immigrant in a different context here in the US than I was back where I came from, I can always relate to having your identity be fractured, be scattered, having to gather up the pieces of it In Pieces of Peace. I was delighted not only by the physical talent and skill of the dancers but the depth of what they were trying to say, the thing I noticed about the performance that really stuck out to me was that there was a thread of conversation about tattoos for the dancers throughout their lives. When it was over, the friend who invited my partner and I to the performance turned to me and said Megan would be perfect for your podcast. I said I would love that we got connected and we made it happen. Here is our conversation. It is wonderful. Megan is an absolutely delightful human. I enjoyed our conversation so much. Please look out for my postings of the gorgeous photos of Megan's dancing that I will be posting on social media. 

Speaker 2: 2:50

The origins of the piece come from the tattoo that I have on my back In the piece you heard that I described when I was in freshman year of high school. I was 14 years old. I was taking this college level art history class and we were going through different stages, different sections of art history, and we got to a section on woodblock printing and origins in China and I designed and carved this elaborate rubber stamp of a lotus flower and a dragonfly and I really loved it. I was really proud of the work and I was like, oh, when I turn 18, if I still love this, I'll get a tattoo of it. And then on my 18th birthday, I still loved it and I went and I got the tattoo. I'm half Chinese and I'm half Irish and I thought it would be meaningful and humorous for me to just get the first Chinese character for piece. Usually the character combination for piece is two characters and the first symbol can mean piece on its own, but is more commonly used to represent and or with or some. So I thought it'd be funny and meaningful if I just got the first Chinese character, because I'm only half Chinese, and I was like, oh, I'm so clever and I told the stories to all my little high school friends and they're like oh wow, you're so clever. But most of my friends and family in high school they didn't speak or read Chinese, so that was also like it had a different meaning there, because there wasn't necessarily all the knowledge behind it. And then when I went to college at UC Berkeley, I was suddenly surrounded by a lot of people who spoke and read Chinese. And then and I didn't know them and they didn't know me, and I started getting really self conscious about people asking me why I had the symbol for and on my back, and so I started covering it up and I went through a lot of college like covering it up and to the point where, like a lot of people are like, oh, you have a tattoo on your back. I had no idea. And once I graduated from college, I kind of like got okay with it again. And then in 2021 and 2022, I was starting to do a lot of work around Chinese communities again. I've always kind of been, you know, up in the Bay Area but got really like heavy in my artwork, in doing work in like Chinatown and with, like another Chinese dance company called Asian American Dance Company called Lenora Lee Dance where I was just around a lot more people who spoke and read Chinese again, and then I got self conscious about the tattoo again and then I was like okay, what is this? What is this going on in yourself, where you're going through these phases of, like pride in the tattoo, self consciousness about that tattoo. 

Speaker 1: 6:18

But why didn't you just go and get the second character added to it? 

Speaker 2: 6:22

Yeah. So despite the feelings that I have about wanting to maybe get that second character, I also have like a little bit of devotion to this idea I had as a young person to mark my identity in a way that felt really meaningful to me and it kind of encapsulates my experiences as a mixed race person and it feels a little bit like if I were to get that second character I feel like I wouldn't be owning that story as much. 

Speaker 1: 7:10

So yeah, like in high school you were like, oh, this is a really clever idea, and then later you realized that like it just didn't really make sense in the world at large in the context of, like other people, being able to read Chinese. So I'm curious, like you could have gotten the character and then maybe gotten like an Irish inspired piece, like around the tattoo you already had, or I'm curious, like I mean I understand now you're saying that like you're, that felt like a true thing to your identity and it would have felt like compromising on that perhaps if you had added the other character. 

Speaker 2: 7:44

Yeah, I think that's, that's an interesting I haven't actually thought of it that way of like. Oh, maybe I'll get something to represent my Irish identity on the body, to like still own that, that mixedness, I think for me. I've actually talked to some people about the symbol on the back who speak and read Chinese and they're like you know what, yes, it can mean and or some or with, but like it can also mean harmony and like. There's, they're like, it's okay, it's okay that you have that on your back, kind of like, and also there's beauty in having those words on your back too, like when you think, when I think of like, mixedness, like that's kind of a bit about what mixedness is about, like the and and, the summation and the harmony of different things living in the body and different histories living in the body. So I'm I'm trying to starting to shift my, my perspective around making that choice to have the single symbol and I think that this, this dance project, has made me feel even more firm in in that decision that I made and so through, like the reason why the piece. So I did a part one of the piece last year it was called piece of peace, so like a piece of peace. And it was a play on the tattoo on my back and in the original process with two of my collaborators, melissa Lewis-Wong, who has a ton of tattoos all over her body, and then Jose Abad, also has some tattoos and is on their body, and we started like, oh, this is kind of like a through line of our work, like we all have these relationships with tattoos, and then that became kind of a theme of the work the, the telling of our stories, of the ways that we're choosing to mark identity, our identities, through tattoos. And then when we did the full length piece this year which you saw, I added Melissa I mean Malia Hattico-Burn to the cast, who also has a long history of tattoos on their body, and we had one person, clarissa Rivera-Dias, who has no tattoos on their body but like has always thought about like tattoos on their body and like what they would get and like has all these like feelings about it but like isn't quite sure like what the first one to get is. And that also became kind of like a funny like. She started like listing all the tattoos that she's thought about getting over the years, which became another way to kind of just assess and and relate to these ways that we think about visually marking our identities. So that's kind of where the like the tattoo through line came the story, because there's so many stories you can tell as a mixed race person. There's so many stories you can tell as a human in the world period, like, how do you land when you're creating something on a particular story to share? And the tattoo stories is where we landed. And even within that, like Melissa, like Melissa and Malia have so many tattoos on their body, like we went through, like some of the different ones and what they mean. We made like a list of them. I have a little collage of all of the tattoos that they have and then, like, landing on you know, a single tattoo or to tell a story about is also like an interesting process, is like the different stages and the different meanings that each tattoo holds for each person at different points of their life. 

Speaker 1: 11:54

Yeah, One of the things that I was also really curious about when you, as the show went on, it became apparent to me that the person in Chinatown that you all went to, like that, was like a touchstone person. the stories that were told and I'm not sure if that was all all of you are like just two of you went to that person but, that person was like a sage of sorts in the story of the whole piece and it made me really curious, like who that person was, how you found them, like what, how much say did you give them? And as you explored the world of like getting tattooed and like doing it specifically in Chinatown, like other person, chinese, the person who was tattooing you as a woman, right, yeah, so that was actually not my tattoo artist. 

Speaker 2: 12:44

That was Melissa and Malia's tattoo artist and I believe Melissa is the one who discovered this particular artist and wanted to get tattooed by a Asian identifying femme person and then made the connection, bringing Malia to get their first tattoo with that same artist. Yeah, so I think they've actually gotten a number. Both of them have gotten a number of tattoos through this particular artist and I am not personally I'm not personally connected to them, but I am curious. 

Speaker 1: 13:30

Yeah, would you want to go to them now? 

Speaker 2: 13:33

Maybe, I don't know. We definitely mused after the project of like what if we all got like a tattoo together to like commemorate this process? And so it's a little bit. It's like a little joke. It's also like a little bit like maybe Klairs is still on the fence of like what their first tattoo is going to be. They also feel a little bit like a unicorn in the dance community, because a lot of folks in our dance circles have at least a tattoo and Klairs is like actually one of the few people who don't. She's like oh, I'm like one of those rare people in our community who don't have a tattoo. Like maybe I still want to be that person. So, yeah, there's definitely. I think we've all we owe. All four of us think about, like, what the next tattoo might be. And then some of us are just a little quicker to like go and get it. And other was kind of like think about it for a while. I only have the one tattoo on my back and I got it in like 2007. And I definitely think about what the next tattoo will be, but I'm not, I still it's. It does feel like a big commitment, and I remember I was listening to one of your podcast episodes and you were talking about like, yes, tattoos are a commitment, but also like if you move, if you grow through life and you change and you evolve, you can cover it, you can change it, you can get it removed, like. So that was kind of fun to hear. Like, okay, yes, tattoos are kind of a big decision, make a permanent thing on the body, but also like there's ways that you can continue to transform the tattoo idea as you begin, as you continue to evolve throughout the stages of your life. Yeah, so it's like that's an interesting perspective, that now I'm like okay, okay, maybe I don't need to be so precious. 

Speaker 1: 15:38

Yeah, yeah, they're not as permanent as it seems. And also, you know it's like the more, the more you have, the easier it is to get more, because you kind of realize that, yeah, it's not as weighty as you think at first. Right like a big commitment, your first one, your second one. Yeah, it's a different experience. So in the dance world I mean, I was never really in the dance world, I took dance classes, but it seems like the dance world we used to be a lot more conservative. You're saying that now a lot of the dancers have a lot or at least one tattoo, and I feel like that used to be. You'd never see it right Like because dance was was a class thing, perhaps especially things like ballet or even like modern jazz, etc. Yeah, what do you think changed that has created like a really different environment. 

Speaker 2: 16:34

That's a great question. I'm sure there are dance communities around the world and even within the Bay Area that are a little bit more along the lines that you're thinking or that you're expressing, with the knowledge of the ballet and all the different kind of more traditional dance forms. I think the communities that I'm kind of more immersed in in dance are a bit more experimental, a bit more edgy, and the kind of people that are drawn to it are people who are really exploring identity. And I feel like tattoos are such a it's a really visual way of expressing identity. And so, yeah, I don't know if it's. I don't know because I mean, I'm only 34. Like, I haven't been around like for a very, very, very long time to like know about how that evolved, how that has changed, but I do know, like within my communities, like tattoos are definitely a really lovely way to express the self and parts of our identity and choices that we've made over time. Although I was just talking to somebody the other day about like a more like traditional, like choreographer from who's been around for a while, who was like would cover up any tattoos on their dancers, would make sure like if they had a tattoo on their arm, they would be wearing long sleeve shirts or yeah. But so everybody has their different relationships with tattoos and that changes over time too. Like my stepmother has some tattoos on her body that she got as a young person and that she's not super in love with now as an adult in her later years, and she's definitely taken efforts to like cover them up. And yeah, I think it's just constantly changing for people and I wonder how many people who are like I just like I have all these imaginations of all the different people in like US like at some point thinking about, like, if I were to get a tattoo, what would it be like? Maybe try on a little temporary tattoos? I gave out temporary tattoos at the end of the Gathering and Pieces of Peace show. They're just, they're fun. They're fun, they're meaningful and the relationships that you build with the person in the moment that's giving you the tattoo and yeah, tell me more about that. 

Speaker 1: 19:25

Do you remember the experience that you had in 2007? 

Speaker 2: 19:30

Yeah, it's, I do, and I remember like key moments of it. I remember going in with my little, my little stamp that I drew and I was like hey, I believe I recall that my tattoo artist's name was Scott and he worked at a tattoo shop in upland that was called upland tattoo shop. It was called up six feet under is what it was called. Anyway, I went in with my tattoo, my tattoo idea, and he was like oh yeah, this is great and you know, do a little sketch of it and like, embellish it a little bit. Originally I had like one dragonfly and he's like oh well, so that this tattoo doesn't look like just like three separate tattoos with, like the lotus flower, the dragonfly and the symbol, like what if we put like two dragonflies over here so it looks like a more cohesive image? So it was. It is definitely a collaboration Like I had that came in with this very clear seed idea Like I wanted my art on my body, and then he really like, took it to the next level. 

Speaker 1: 20:47

And you were happy to let him. You didn't feel particularly just like the stamp that you made. 

Speaker 2: 20:53

Yeah, no, I think myself as an individual artist, like I love collaboration and I like wanting, I wanted to have that collaboration. I wanted to get their input and they're like like you as a tattoo artist, like the tattoo artist have a wealth of experience and knowledge that goes into all the tattoos that they've done in the past, so they have a. He had a much better understanding of like tattoos than I did. I was like an 18 year old coming in with the like a stamp, like I, like there's so much I could have learned or that I did learn from that process with them as an artist, and so I think it is important, like when you're going in with an idea, like to also with a tattoo artist, to also be open to some of the ideas that they might have, because they probably have more experience in relationship to like how it's going to look on the body, like what I didn't even think about. Like this is going to look like three separate tattoos, like like for him to bring in that. Ok, if we add these two other dragonflies over here, like men, you'll tell that it's like one one, one piece. So that was really, I think, a great choice on his end. 

Speaker 1: 22:13

Do you remember how long it took? 

Speaker 2: 22:15

Yeah, it was four and a half hours. 

Speaker 1: 22:19

We did all of the session, the tattoo all took four and a half hours. Damn, that's a long session for first time. 

Speaker 2: 22:25

Yeah, four and a half hours. I have a really, really high paint dollars, yeah, that makes sense. So, yeah, I sat there for like four and a half hours. I went there with like my punk rock boyfriend and like my punk rock friends. They're all like hanging out with me and talking to me while I'm just sitting there in this like this chair, while getting my back done, and I remember like the areas that were the most most painful were, like I have like the Chinese symbol on the back when, yeah, this is. 

Speaker 1: 23:02

OK. 

Speaker 2: 23:07

The, the Chinese symbol, used like a, like a forky prongy thing. What do you call that? It's like it had like two, I don't know. Sorry, I don't know the lingo so much, but that was painful. The dark, the dark, heavy Chinese symbol. 

Speaker 1: 23:27

I mean the tattoo machine and the tattoo needles look kind of the same to the observer, whatever it is you're doing. Yeah, I'm curious. Like a two prong thing was, but it wasn't handpoked, right. 

Speaker 2: 23:39

It wasn't handpoked. It was definitely like a machine and it looked I remember it looked like a tiny, tiny, like a pitchfork, like it had like two little ends. I don't know. This is also like 15 years ago, so I have no idea what you're talking about. 

Speaker 1: 23:54

No, totally, I've been tattooing about 15 years, so I'm like I don't know anything like that, but that's, yeah, fascinating. 

Speaker 2: 24:03

Yeah, it was. It was a bigger needle and it hurt more. It was also closer to my spine and it was also like the heavy dark outline, like dark care, like versus, like outlining, so that I remember that hurting a lot. And then also like, when it got closer to like my armpit area, like I don't know if there's like more sensation over there, that also became a little bit more challenging yeah. 

Speaker 1: 24:27

Do you remember how much it cost? 

Speaker 2: 24:30

I feel like it was in the 400 to 400 to 500 range. 

Speaker 1: 24:38

And at 18, where, like how did you, was it like a hardship to pay for that? Was it like the same money? How did you pay for it? 

Speaker 2: 24:49

I did a lot of tutoring when I was in high school and I had some money saved up from tutoring. 

Speaker 1: 24:58

I love that, like you're like, I was a good girl, I was tutoring and I took my tutoring money and I went and got my first tattoo. 

Speaker 2: 25:06

Yeah, yeah, that's what I did with my tutoring money. 

Speaker 1: 25:11

I mean, what better thing to spend your tutoring money on? Yeah, what did your family know? Did you tell them you were doing it? 

Speaker 2: 25:22

My mom knew she knew was going to do it. I lived with my mom. My mom was also like the least disciplinary human on earth. She's like whatever you want. I was like, okay, I'm gonna go get this tattoo. 

Speaker 1: 25:38

Is your mom, your Chinese side or your Irish side? 

Speaker 2: 25:40

My Irish side and my dad. I didn't tell him right away because he actually lived in New Hampshire at the time and I wasn't going to be seeing him for a while. But then when he came to visit and I think we're going to like a pool or something was like hey, dad, I got a tattoo and he wasn't thrilled. But he's also like he trusts the decisions I make and didn't really express like too much, like I didn't get like a big chastise about it. He's just kind of like oh okay, well, that was a choice he made. You have only child. No, I have a sister who's a year and a half younger than me that just passed away last year and she actually got a tattoo before I did. She went to like Venice Beach when she was 14 and lied about her age and got a tattoo on her foot and actually became super devoted to tattoos by the time she was gone. Like was covered in tattoos, just like foot, thigh, whole back, arm, sleeve, wow, like sentences across her stomach like so many tattoos. And so I think tattoos also for me like have a little bit of an association with her, even though I only have the one tattoo, like she had so many and she'd always like every time I would see her like she'd have a new tattoo and I would hear about it, and yeah. So I grew up with her up until I was 18, and then I have a half, two half siblings who are 16 years and 15 years younger than I am, who have no tattoos. I don't know if they're able to get tattoos. My stepmom is like, even though she was a tattooed person, was very much like I don't want my kids to get tattoos and I was like that's interesting, and so I think that they have kind of grown up with this idea of like not getting tattoos. 

Speaker 1: 28:00

Sounds like they're quite young, so they'll. 

Speaker 2: 28:02

Yeah, they are. They're both in college now. 

Speaker 1: 28:06

But you know, like just still quite young, even for the new generation of people who are. I mean, there's also this interesting thing that's happening with the new generation is that I think that a lot of them are more conservative in certain ways as far as self-expression goes, as far as sexuality goes. Like there's just talking to a friend of mine who's a therapist and they were saying there's just a sort of because they grew up with the internet and all of our generation like people who aren't their parents or you know, people who are like 40s now. We were so like, ah, let us get naked and like be everywhere and like, do all this stuff and go to sex parties and do drugs, like a lot of them are like yeah, no, thanks. Like it's like a lot, it's too much for me. So I could understand why the younger ones would be like no, we don't want tattoos. 

Speaker 2: 28:56

Yeah, I think they think. I think they've joked about it a little bit and you know, sometimes jokes usually have like a little bit of like actual, like truth behind them Usually yes yeah, I still like I think I might want to get my tattoo touched up at some point because I think it's aging fine, but I do like, I like also on your podcast, you're talking about some of like the new, the new things that have come out, and like the new styles that have come out, and like I am curious about like the reenlivening of this piece to make it more vibrant, because it is, it has softened over time. I think it still looks pretty good for being 15 years old. Yeah, but yeah, I do, I'm like. Okay. Also, there's one, there's one dragonfly on my skin that the artist made yellow and I'm like dude, I'm Asian. Like my skin has, like it's very kind of like has a yellow undertone and so that dragonfly in particular is like you can barely see it because it's yellow. So I'm like that guy. That guy needs that little dragonfly, definitely needs a little like color revamp so you can actually see him. 

Speaker 1: 30:14

So you can definitely have yellow ink in your skin and it will stand out. You just need to put something near it that's darker and deeper. 

Speaker 2: 30:23

Yeah, right now it's kind of like standalone yellow with black outline and it's so. There isn't. There isn't something to contrast it. Yeah, I think I'm leaning more towards the reenlivening of the tattoo, like via color, versus adding the second Chinese symbol at this point and just like staying true being. I'm also a very stubborn person Like oh, I made a choice, I'm committed to the choice. So I think, I think at this point in my current brain, like I'm, like, I'm devoted to the symbolism of the single Chinese character for peace. And who knows, that might change again, like in years to come. 

Speaker 1: 31:07

You really are like stubborn around it. I love that there's like you found deeper layers of meaning in the choice that you made then at 18. I think that's really beautiful and also, you know, because I I'm in the business of translating people, people's symbolism of their lives into their symbolism on their skin. And if you had been, or if you came to me as a client and you were like here's, here's this tattoo, I'd like to like change it, I'd like to enhance it, etc. You know, be like OK, other other ways we can like bring in the Irish pieces of you that would be more avert, like if that's something you want you know because that's a pretty subtle way to to say that. 

Speaker 2: 31:52

Yeah, I think, definitely planted a seed for me in relationship to like. Ok, like I've done all this work on mixedness, a lot of my work has been around the Asian American side of of my story and I am starting to dive a bit deeper into the Irish aspects of my, my heritage as well. I'm going to be. I did like a a collaboration with the Irish consulate in San Francisco and Los Angeles at the end of last year and it we made like a little experimental dance music film collaboration with some like with a two Irish artists in LA. One is a musician and one is a fabric fabric artist and we made a dance film. It's called it's called double body as source and it was a really fun way to like get more in touch with my Irish roots and to have this, this really lovely collaboration, and the film is now like on air Lingus, like you can like go on the my god and watch the film on the plane as you're like going to and from Ireland and I went to Ireland this year. 

Speaker 1: 33:14

I wish I'd known that I would have looked you up in there. 

Speaker 2: 33:17

Yeah, I think it got released. Like when did you go to Ireland? 

Speaker 1: 33:21

in February. In February. 

Speaker 2: 33:22

Oh yeah, the film didn't get released till International Women's Day on in March, and then I think it didn't get into Erlingus until like July, I think OK. 

Speaker 1: 33:34

I'd love to link it, so later. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can afterwards, let me let me know where I can find it and I'll link it to the show notes. 

Speaker 2: 33:41

Yeah, I could definitely send you that link. It started off as like interviews, like three different interviews like each about five minutes each, and then like a 13 minute dance film, and then they fused it all together into one like 30 minute documentary mini series. There's two other, there's two other films in the series. The series is called Do West and I'm going to be going to Ireland in March next year. Maybe we should connect and I can get some tips from you, since you are there around the same time, and so I'm really excited about that. I'm excited to watch the film on the plane and I'm going to be getting in contact with another half Chinese, half Irish artist who's living in Ireland and he's also an aerialist and a contemporary dancer, and I'm curious about like maybe bringing them to US to like make something together at some point. And I also am like trying to figure out my dual citizenship, like my mom started trying to get our dual citizenship when I was in middle school and she wasn't much of a completionist, so she started it and then didn't finish it, and so I'm like, okay, maybe I want to pick up where that's left off and see if I can figure out how to get my dual citizenship. So, yeah, I'm definitely thinking more about digging into the Irish side of my heritage as well. And, yeah, now you've planted the seed of like okay, well, next tattoo, maybe I need to like really think about what. I would want to do to represent that side of myself. So it's not so. So I have both represented on my body. 

Speaker 1: 35:36

If you I mean, if that was something you wanted you could get a tattoo in Ireland. There's a pretty big tattoo scene in Dublin. I did get tattooed there. It wasn't a great experience, so wouldn't send you to the same place, the same person, but they're kind of like, as I was already there, I was there with friends visiting their friends. It was like kind of a social thing more than a sightseeing thing, although we didn't stay in Dublin, mostly we were out in the countryside, which was, yeah, you like, you have to go. You can't stay in Dublin the whole time, but there's a I know there's a queer studio like an all queer studio there. I don't know. I mean, I don't know how you identify, doesn't? You don't have to identify as queer, of course, to to go to that studio, but if I was to go again or I was sending people to get tattooed in Ireland, I would probably say check out that studio and those folks, because I think you'd have a much more soulful experience than the one I had. 

Speaker 2: 36:39

Oh yeah, I wonder. That's definitely when one of the curiosities of like a people who get a lot more tattooed, like the choice of like staying with one artist or trying out different artists or getting them in different places, and it's really like the, the the experiences that you have with different artists that you're getting tattooed by, like the hidden miss, like like oh is it a great experience? Was it not such a great experience? And I'm sorry that you didn't have a good experience getting your tattoo in Ireland. 

Speaker 1: 37:17

You know, that's it happens and I'm like a, I'm a pretty, I would say I'm probably one of those highly sensitive people anyway and the vibes are really important in my experiences and I think not having a great experience happens way more often than people will say because people don't expect a lot out of their getting tattooed experience. They expect to get the tattoo. It's looking more or less how they want and no one like straight up assaulted them and also they didn't get an infection from the, from the place, right, like that's kind of the expectations people have about a tattooing experience. I expect to actually connect with a person who's putting their ink, their touch, into my body for the rest of my life. Yeah most tattoo artists don't care about that piece, especially not to be, not to be a misandrist or something. But it's the men like the men mostly don't give a shit. And it's the other women too, like there's. I definitely have some experiences with female tattoo artists that my youth that were really flat, but yeah with with. So I would say, you know, you don't hear people talk about having bad experiences because to them the basic neutral experience isn't bad. Yeah, to me, because I've had such good ones and because of what I expect and what I give to my clients, I expect that to some level, you know, in return. So that's kind of that's where I'm coming from. With that, you know, like nothing really bad happened. It just wasn't like what I wanted, you know. And then the tattoo itself like I got there was hand poked work and it's on my hand. So, like a lot of these like dots were done by him and some other stuff he did, like I have dots on my ears too and it was. It was incredibly painful and it's pretty blown out. I mean he didn't have, you know, his experience like all his work online looked really good and clean, but his I don't think he's actually experienced this as I thought I definitely. 

Speaker 2: 39:24

I definitely feel like, if I were to get another tattoo, that I would love to have a more build, more relationships with the tattoo artist, because I do think, as an 18 year old going to get my tattoo, like you were talking about, like that neutral experience it was pretty neutral, like my tattoo artist was great and he did the job, but there wasn't, like I don't remember having like any big conversations with him or like him asking me about like the meaning of the tattoo too much, like it was much more from like a visual perspective than like a story perspective. 

Speaker 1: 40:06

And that can be also enough. You know Like not everybody wants to share their story. So, it's like there's also an energetic, like openness and warmth that somebody can have without actually asking you about, like the deepest secrets that you have, right, and that's like that's plenty for me, Like just energetic warmth, openness, kindness, consideration, right, Because there's also so many people who will really just treat you like your piece of skin with a wallet attached to it Again, like a neutral experience. You might get a good tattoo, but it's just like you didn't feel like you were really fully considered as a full human. But that's also what I was gonna say, you know, when you talked about like people traveling versus choosing one person sticking with them, because so many people have a really neutral to negative experience with most people. When they find somebody they have a really sweet, tender, a warm, open experience with. They stick with that person and it's like, not a matter of this is how I wanna, you know, build my body of work, but more like I feel safe here, so I'm gonna stay here you know, and then sometimes you like maybe you found those people with that person. But then you travel and you're like I wanna souvenir from freaking Dublin. You know, I'm going there with one of my bestest friends and her partner and her family and then we're meeting other queer friends there and like let's all get cool like group queer tattoos together and we did like there were five of us who got tattooed. 

Speaker 2: 41:32

Nice. 

Speaker 1: 41:33

Yeah, so it was just like it felt like a really cool experience to have, and still does, but yeah, but that's like a different expectation you have versus like going to the person that you sit with for hours that you feel like they know you, you know them. 

Speaker 2: 41:47

some you like maybe meet their dog in their space you like drink tea with them, so yeah, yeah, you do your tattoos out of your own personal space, or? 

Speaker 1: 42:02

I have a studio, yeah, since on the Andro, yeah, oh cool. 

Speaker 2: 42:06

Yeah, I remember you saying you have like you don't work in like a collective, you have like your own space, right? 

Speaker 1: 42:13

Yeah, I've had my own studio for years now, for different reasons financial reasons one of them because shops charge a lot when you work for somebody else. It's like 50% 40%. 

Speaker 2: 42:24

Wow. 

Speaker 1: 42:24

Yeah. So you know, as I just got deeper into my career, I was like I just really need to work a little bit less because this is really exhausting and so working for somebody else stopped making sense. But actually I just took on an apprentice, so my space is slowly becoming a bit shared with this lovely human. She's not tattooing yet, so right now she's just kind of coming and watching and organizing things and learning from me, being like come here, let me show you this thing I'm doing. But yeah, it's gonna at some point become more shared, yeah. 

Speaker 2: 43:02

Sweet yeah, Building community yeah totally. 

Speaker 1: 43:06

I mean, the community is everything. It's kind of like the point of life, I think. 

Speaker 2: 43:11

Yeah, I'm curious, like okay, now I'm like asking you questions, but oh, please, this is a conversation. I mean, it's like not knowing you as a person at all Like of course. 

Speaker 1: 43:21

it's like a little bit like what is this gonna be? But I mean I appreciate you listening to the podcast before coming on, like that's so lovely. But yeah, like it's a conversation, yeah, I'm happy to talk, just to talk like. Talk to people, right, like I wanna get to know people. 

Speaker 2: 43:38

Yeah, I love that as like a mutual, like getting to know each other. It's more fun to be, like bouncing back and forth than just to be like I'm answering all the questions. So I guess one of the when you were talking about like how I make dance and like so much of much of the art that I'm making via dance, via dance theater, is like the emphasis for me is really on the community, building the relationships that I'm making. It's not just art for art's sake, and the process is such a huge part of the journey, like the product is what the people see, but like okay, like you came to an hour-long show, it took like a hundred hours to like make that dance together and like those a hundred hours are such a huge part of my life, of the artists that I was working on, working with like the whole year. We've been together like making this thing and building these relationships and having these conversations about our histories and our families and our tattoos, and like there's so much like I feel like I've grown a lot as a person through those interactions. I've definitely gotten closer to these artists that I was collaborating with and then we share this thing, this thing, to the as many people who were able to share it with and they see that one hour of work and that's super meaningful to like have the chance to share parts of ourselves and all the hard parts of the hard work that went into creating something. But there's so much backstory, so much that is not seen in that one hour. But at the same time, it's like, because we shared that hour with the audience, we now have a little bit more connection to them. Like I have people writing me about like the impact of the work, or writing to me or coming up to me after the show and sharing some of their own stories and so like that community building and, however big or small, like it feels really meaningful and I'm curious, like for you, when you're, you know, doing your craft, your art via tattoos, like the community building aspects of that and like how much of like the process is weighted against the products that is shared like what are some of your thoughts and experiences around that? 

Speaker 1: 46:23

That's a really awesome question. Yeah, I mean, that's like everything I think to me, you know, and like the sitting in that room with somebody tattooing them, like sometimes, you know, when I was starting out I think I would kind of like push more conversation, sharing, et cetera, but now I just kind of let the person lead as far as like how deep they wanna go in words, and I do most of my work I do on people with like bigger pieces, so it's more than one session, and so we build that relationship, you know, over the course of and even if it's just one session, then they'll probably come back. So there's like there's always building upon, you know, and the result of that is that when you know, like this spring it was my birthday and I have a close person to me who's been going through cancer, and so the spring when I posted on my Instagram hey, it's my birthday, if you are somebody who would buy me a drink, would you please just donate that 15 bucks to my friend who's going through cancer and needs money to live, and people you know just sent money and it was like it was, and they're giving my friend like over $2,000. From just like folks who saw my post on Instagram and were like I care about you and I wanna help you and your friend out, and so that, to me, was like the culmination of that sense of community. You know that people who not only come to me and get tattooed by me and then pay me for that also care about me enough to help me now when I need it. So it was really just like such a sweet moment of being like yeah, this is community, you know. And when the Barbie movie came out, you know, I have a client who I really care about and she's had a rough, she's been going through a rough time for a little while and she was like, oh no, I don't wanna go see that. It's like. That doesn't seem like it's up my alley. And I knew that she would love it because I had seen it, you know. And so she came in for a session and I said to her put your back down, we're gonna go for a flight, we're going on a field trip. And so I took her out to the movies and you know she was delighted, she loved it. But that's what I mean, you know, is that the connections that are happening in that room are not just about the exchange of ink for money. And yeah, like that's super precious to me. I mean, I feel like that's my life's work, is like creating a collection of humans that I am in relationship with, and then, you know, if there's also a mark that's on their skin that I made that they love is that's great too. That's a bonus. 

Speaker 2: 49:14

Is that kind of like one of the reasons why you started doing this podcast, to like continue that community building. 

Speaker 1: 49:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like I was in someone's house and she has she loves Polaroids and you know so she takes a lot of Polaroids of her friends and so she had this wall of just these little photographs, just completely full like a grid, and I was like this is the podcast for me, like this is what I'm doing. There are snapshots of humans that I think are amazing and are doing something really cool or just like maybe seem like ordinary people living ordinary lives, but they're not ordinary, right, cause we're all unique. So I was like this is the podcast right here, that wall that you have here, that's my wall, the podcast. And I was going to say, like your performance. But when you come to see a dance performance, I think that you expect to be odd by the physical prowess of the dancers. That's the first thing you think of when you go to see a dance performance. Of course, in the Bay there's usually something beyond that, like identity, as you were saying, but the first thing when you're watching it, before you really understand what's happening or what is being talked about the coordination, how long it took. I could feel that it took you hundreds of hours to make that happen. Because, there's so much. I know that a one-person show will take forever too, but when you have multiple people who all have to work together, how long that would take to even get one sequence or five-minute sequence or a little scene or where you move locations and you're here on the stairs and now you're here in the chairs and now you're here on the wall. That, to me, was so cool, how you put it all together, that you had enough attention on all the pieces happening on the stage at once to create this perfectly synchronized bouquet. It's like a bouquet of flowers. And also some things were so when the dancers were in the front, when you guys were in the front, and then there were these people sitting right there. But what was happening here was it was intense, there was a lot of crotch shots and they're just all. It was intimate and these elderly people were sitting there like and I love that unabashed freedom. You're doing this thing, this expression. It's intimate, it's raw, the people watching are experienced, and watching the people watch also, besides just watching the dancers, and the relationship you also create with the space. Like I said before, I think that was so unique because your body is, but so is the building, it's also a body and the relationships you have with each other and also with the walls and the chairs and the stairs and the floor, the physicality of that and it was really well balanced I think that's maybe the Because I look for that in tattoos too like balance. How will this be balanced with the body? And I think dance is very similar in that way, like the physicality and the balance of elements coming together. 

Speaker 2: 52:45

I think it's. Yeah, I definitely, when I go out to make dance performances, I like to think of it really holistically. It's not just about the individual dancers doing some dance moves. It's like, okay, what is the space we're in, how is the lighting going to affect the environments that we create and share, and who are the people who are in the space as audience that we're sharing with? And I think it's fun that you had mentioned watching audience, watching dancers. That was definitely a really intentional choice about bringing the dance into the audience space so that they're not only just looking at us, that there's also opportunities to see each other. It felt kind of meaningful in a work that was very much about identity and the formation of that and hopefully inviting audiences to reflect back on their own experiences and the ways that they have marked their identity and maybe see people around them and have curiosities around that as well. I also think in relationship to the site-specific aspects of things, every audience member has a different viewpoint depending on where they're sitting and the proximity that they have to the dancers. There are moments where there are some people who are really close up and there's other moments when people are really far away, and so, in those moments when you're far away and you can't see the entirety of a dancer, what do your eyes then turn to? Are you seeing the space now? Are you seeing the people that are around you more? And so, making that a really intentional choice to be like? I even wrote in the program that not everybody looked at because it was digital Audience I invite you to feel all your feelings. There are moments here where you can be laughing. There are moments here where you can be crying. There are moments of curiosity and contemplation. There are also moments where you might not see the entirety of a dancer and in that moment, what is unique to your particular perspective? Don't be like, oh shoot, I'm missing it. Think about, okay, well, what are other things in the space that are going on? The space itself, the architecture of it, the people who are in the audience. That, to me, is really an intentional choice of this isn't just about these four dancers on stage. This is a piece that is about the community that has come to also see this and all the little tendrils that each individual in the space has to their communities, like how, hopefully, it radiates out into all the connections that individuals have that aren't on stage as well. I feel like that and, based off of some of the feedback that I've received, I do feel like that has been an invitation that has landed for people in terms of like I've had people write about. Oh, I got a really sweet comment from a person who was talking about how I came to see your show and it made me want to reach out to my neighbor Because I recently got into like a little tiff with them and I wanted to reconcile. I was thinking of Pie for some reason, because you were talking about pieces of peace and I was thinking like a piece of a pie and I went and baked him a pie and I gave it to him and it started this really great conversation and I started talking about your show and why I made this pie and just like weird little connections like that where you're just like, okay, I'm so amazed that this piece made you want to make a pie for your neighbor to reconcile. Like that's amazing, like that was definitely another something that I imagined as a result of you seeing this work, and it was a completely random person that I'd never met that decided that they wanted to write me about this. 

Speaker 1: 57:08

But I think that you know that makes sense, even though there was nothing about literal pie or neighbors, yeah. That like like what you're talking about now community right, and that that is kind of the whole point of all the work. Like that's the thread that goes through all the work that you do, that's what it is right. Like our neighbors, yeah, and like how do we live in peace with the world around us? Like that's exactly it. 

Speaker 2: 57:35

Yeah, it is. I think I, yeah I love hearing those stories of how art can impact people in their everyday lives. It's really hearing those come back or just it's so meaningful and it just it kind of full circles, the like the reason why or I'm making the art and I imagine, like I'm not a tattoo artist, that but like I imagine like when you are making tattoos and like marking folks, bodies, like that they now have like this very visual story, representation of a choice they made or a way that they're choosing to mark the identity that they now share with the people that are seeing it, and then maybe those people are now sharing conversations that are in relationship to that tattoo and like how they're like their conversation starters, their their ways of relating to each other and like sparking like moments of connection and understanding. 

Speaker 1: 58:54

Yeah, and you know this piece about like back in the day. I was thinking about this yesterday for some random reason, but you know like your barber used to be a dentist back in the day. 

Speaker 2: 59:06

Yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 1: 59:08

And I was like maybe they are also where, like the tattoo artist back in the day, like the person with the sharp pointed tools was also, did they did your hair? Did you do teeth and your tattoos? Not that I like there probably wasn't much of a tattoo culture in like certain parts of the world at certain times, though there was at other times. But I was just thinking about how, like in a village, you'd have your people that you'd go to your like healer also did probably tattoos to care of your, like cuts and scrapes, but also like delivered your children. There was like each person had like a team of there's kind of people they needed in times of like change or crisis or like transition of some sort, right and those people really important and when you're facilitating and like a big experience for somebody right, like that's about their, their humanity, not about, like the thing you're doing to them or for them. But that like that feels really meaningful to me is to be a person in someone's village that they come to in terms of transition and like from that point of view, like being a community person and a community I don't know fixture and also like because you know, like now I have people who bring me their kids or their kids come to me because they're 18 now and the person who's my apprentice her aunts and I met when I used to work at Active Space in the city and she did my hair for a while and she would talk about her niece, who was amazing, and her niece was like 13, 14 at the time and now she's 23 and she's my apprentice. So sweet, yeah, yeah. Like all the connections, right, like you said, like you don't know what happens behind this, the scene, but like people come back around and you're like, oh my God, like I factored you in this way, I had no idea, like this thing I did, or someone else who was affected by me affected you, and like now you're here, it's pretty cool. Yeah, it's really cool. 

Speaker 2: 1:01:15

Yeah. 

Speaker 1: 1:01:18

I'm going to ask you my like kind of final question. I feel like it's probably time to wrap up. I ask everybody this when I remember, to what is a small thing that's been making you happy lately. 

Speaker 2: 1:01:34

What is a small thing that's been making me happy lately? Small thing, small thing. Well, this is the infinite thing that makes me happy and it's. It is might be small for other people's, but it's big for me, and that is my cats. I do feel like I feel like as a cat in a past life. I have a big affinity for cats, but I have five of them and you saw one of them for a brief moment until he started meowing and I was like we can't have meowing on this podcast. You got to go. But yeah, they are very important to me and they make me very happy and it's nice to like, you know, after a long 13 hour work day, come home and be like cuddled on and loved on by some cute little furry creatures. So yeah, that's kind of my forever answer to that question. 

Speaker 1: 1:02:41

I'm going to summarize your answer as because yeah, the cats are big, they're not small things, but the snuggles maybe are small thing, like the after work snuggles. 

Speaker 2: 1:02:50

After work snuggles is my small happiness, small thing that's making me happy. I love that. 

Speaker 1: 1:02:59

Yeah, I hope that the liciters get a little after work snuggle tonight. Yeah, yeah, thank you so much for whatever cat a sweater a dog a person, a pillow, a bath, the golden bachelor, whatever it is, yeah. 

Speaker 2: 1:03:23

Thanks so much for having me. This is it's nice to just be in flow conversation and, yeah, I found this to be a really lovely.