Shannon Home (doesn't she sound so cozy?) creates illustrative blackwork tattoos for the odd and peculiar, with a style that lands at the intersection of fairy tales and ghost stories. Her work
is mostly, almost entirely black ink. It is intricate, contrasting, stark, and absolutely stunning.
Shannon and I connected on Instagram when I randomly came upon her feed and fell in love with her work. After I convinced her my intentions were pure, she got truly excited about being a part of
this project, Ink Medicine Podcast.
This is a beautiful snapshot of another tattooer, an artist, a woman who truly loves what she does. And who also recognizes how aware one has to be to do this work well; and how difficult it is
to be both, at once, the holder of our clients' life stories and the needle.
If you are in Denver or making a trip there, if you are odd and peculiar, and perhaps you'd like to be decorated darkly, Shannon is your person.
Shannon Home resides in Denver, Colorado, with her partner and two kids.
Shannon's art can be found on instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/bramblesinblack/
On her website:
https://www.bramblesinblack.com/
And also on the website of her beloved shop, All Sacred:
https://allsacred.com/shannon-home/
You can connect with me, Micah Riot, as well as see my tattoo art on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/micahriot/
Micah's website is www.micahriot.com
The podcast is hosted on Buzzsprout but truly lives in the heart of Micah's website at:
https://www.micahriot.com/ink-medicine-podcast/
Episode Transcript
Speaker 1:
Hello, my darlings, hello. This is Micah Riot, back at you with another episode of Ink Medicine podcast. It is Thursday, september 28th, and today on my podcast, you're going to hear an interview with Shannon Home. Shannon's work caught my eye because I love blackwork. I love creepy, haunting, beautiful blackwork that she does. It has themes of fairy tales, nature, the occult, what's beyond. Shannon has been tattooing for six years. She is just the sweetest human. As you'll hear, she is a mom to two gender diverse children. Shannon works with a trauma informed lens and she's also part of the eligibility community, as we speak, or the queer community, for those who did not see that one viral video. Shannon's work is absolutely stunning. Her Instagram name is bramblesandblack. I will link it in the show notes. Her shop that she is a part of is called All Sacred Tattoo, which is located in Denver, Colorado. And now enjoy the conversation. Well, let's start from the beginning. Yeah, I love your name, shannon Home. It's so cozy, obviously. Tell me about your name maybe I don't know if that's your given name or name you chose, and you can frame that however you want, because people ask me if Mike Wright is my name and I just go. That's a rude question.
Speaker 2:
It's funny how often people ask things like that actually. But actually Home is a chosen name. It was not my given name. I recently changed it from my married name. I had my partner's name for 20 years and decided I wanted to kind of connect to my roots. So it's actually the name of the Scottish clan that my family and my ancestors belonged to, and so as I'm learning more about myself and my history and my traditions and the things that we kind of as Americans, are a little more disconnected from, I thought that it was a really awesome way to kind of incorporate, reconnecting and reclaiming some of that. And so I just in the last year actually changed my last name to Home as sort of a celebration of that and as a place to come back to. You know, that's what the other piece of it, that I think that means a lot that as we're all kind of walking through this human experience, you know that it's such a powerful word because that's where it's where we come back to, you know in ourselves and our places and all of that stuff. So that that's kind of the meaning and the decision behind that choice.
Speaker 1:
So and like as a tattooer, I think you know, like every I feel, like every tattoo we get, even if we don't realize it, it's about making our body more of our home.
Speaker 2:
Yes, yes, absolutely yeah, it's one of those things that just felt, yeah, it felt right, exactly Like you said, like I've been working we all work, you know, our whole lives to find that sense of like, belonging and that sense of home, and I think that tattooing has been a really profound piece of that for me.
Speaker 1:
So how long have you been tattooing?
Speaker 2:
Six years. It'll be six years next month actually, so how did you come to it?
Speaker 1:
How did you start?
Speaker 2:
It's, I think, like I'm really thankful that I actually wound up starting a little later in life. I didn't start tattooing until I was 35. And it was one of those things that like as a collector, I mean I got my first tattoo when I was 18 and just didn't stop and just loved being in the shops and asking all the questions to all the. You know, I at one point had an artist tell me to like just be quiet and let him finish tattooing because I had too many questions, and so I wrote. It's always been one of those things that were in the back of my head and you know, being a tattooed person, people would always ask like, oh, are you a tattoo artist? And I always like broke my heart a little bit to say no, and there was always that little nugget in the back of my head that was like maybe someday, maybe someday. And you know, I finally had a friend that was a painting professor and we talked a lot about painting and he's also a tattoo artist and for a long time he would tell me, like you know, you'd be really good at this, you should, you should think about doing this, and I would give him all kinds of excuses why it wasn't going to work. And finally, one day he was like you know, all of the things you're telling me are just because you're afraid. You know that, right, like these, these aren't valid reasons why you can't do this. And I was like, dang, you're right, I can't argue with that. So I'm thankful, you know, that I have had a person in my life at the time that held my feet to the fire a little bit, and so I went and talked to the person who owned the shop that he worked at at the time and found myself a mediocre apprenticeship to cut my teeth on, like I think that's the story for so many of us that you know we have an expectation around what an apprenticeship should be based on. You know, if we came up in the American school system and we have rubrics and standards and checklists and that's not at all what tattooing is.
Speaker 1:
So I think it can be. Though you know like, I think I've heard of people getting those apprenticeships. I was just kind of like do whatever, learn whatever you can.
Speaker 2:
Yes, yeah, so very thankful for the people who were willing to let me be bad at something before I was good at something, because that's the process. But yeah, and then I was very fortunate, a few years into practicing as a tattooer, to be able to kind of be taken under the wing of the person who owns the shop where I'm at now, and so he's very much been a mentor to me, not in the traditional sense, but I've grown so much as an artist and as a human just because of the guidance from him in particular and from the entire community that he's been able to kind of cultivate. So I think that that's, I would say, lends more to my education as a tattooer. As far as you know where my roots are now, or definitely in the space that I'm working, I feel very lucky to be there.
Speaker 1:
So it sounds like your love influences were men.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, which initially was kind of conflicting for me as a female tattooer. I think I try to hold a lot of reverence for the women who really had to forge this path for me to be able to step into tattooing when I did and how I did, because I definitely did not have to fight to hold my own the way that I know a lot of people have had to do before me and I've not to say that I haven't encountered some of the sort of cliche, toxic masculinity that I think so many people associate with, like traditional tattooers and older tattooers, because I've definitely been on the receiving end of some of that. But I feel so fortunate that to have had balance, I think, in my upbringing in tattooing, where I've worked in all female shops before and that's been awesome. But I think that the shop I'm at now I think we're about half and half of you know, male and female tattooers and a NSU that don't claim either side, and I think that diversity makes it a much richer experience. You know, I also didn't love being on the flip side of being in the like she-woman-man-haters club.
Speaker 1:
I mean, I'm thinking even with a male-owned and male, where's a lot of men in the shop. It's not even like it's the boys that are toxic and not, but the clients can be, you know, like the kinds of people who come expecting what they expect in a place that is very masculine presenting.
Speaker 2:
Yes, yes, and I would say the shop where I'm at I guess I've never really thought about it before like the shop itself being can be very masculine presenting in certain shops. The shop that I'm at is not. It's very much. I can't say enough good things about it. It really is like such a sweet home for me. It's, the person who owns my shop is a 25 year tattooer, so he has sort of seen all of the different things that kind of wrong, but it's he and his partner own sort of businesses that run adjacent to each other within the same building, and so I think there's this really awesome balance of the male, female energy in the space as well.
Speaker 1:
Both tattoo shops.
Speaker 2:
They're not. One is a tattoo shop and one is. I almost hate to describe it as a metaphysical shop because that's technically like the business model it falls under, but it's so much cooler than that. So it's ritual crap is. It's like every, every, like walk of magic, education and history, and it's amazing. I feel like I can't I'm not describing it well, but there's, there's an element of overlap between the two businesses that I think really elevates the space so that it doesn't feel inherently masculine or feminine. I think it just it's one of my favorite things. When I have clients come in and they walk into the space and they go, this place feels amazing because it means we're doing something right, not just in hanging pictures on the wall or hanging plants up or making sure we have sunshine, but I think every artist that I work with really takes a lot of pride in cultivating the energetic space to and and treating tattoo as a ritual, you know, as we have this opportunity to sit down with people every single day in this like blood ritual of storytelling, and I think that that approach to it really helps kind of level the field of like masculine, feminine energy. And of course there's artists, there's ego, like we're all human, but it's not perfect. But I think that that is one of the proudest pieces of what tattooing has to offer the world and what I'm proud to be part of this tradition, you know, because it's it's a lot more than just drawing pictures.
Speaker 1:
So yeah, and you know, not everybody understands that, right, yeah, but yeah, I love, I love that. I love how much you love your shop and your coworkers. It's so beautiful, yeah, and energy in the shop is for sure. Like it's so separate thing besides, like what the pictures are and what the furniture is and you know what, how it's painted. And also, like I love that you have a. I'll call it I'll simply call it a gem, a gem magic store. Yes, I like I make jewelry and I love gems and stones and so yeah. And it's just me in my shop right now. Just have a look, a little private studio and I have a little dish of like rings I've made that people can buy.
Speaker 2:
I love that.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, so it's like a little mini version of that.
Speaker 2:
That's amazing. I that's actually, I think, how that shop kind of started, because the the person who owns what is ritual craft now was a tattooer when the fall started out, and I think it started very much as just having ritual and magic offerings In conjunction with what tattoo is, and it sort of grew from that. So, yeah, you have like the same same backbone there.
Speaker 1:
A little bit like a little mini version.
Speaker 2:
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:
So tell us what. What is your specialty? And I mean that lesson, like it's clear what your specialty is by looking at your Instagram. But what? What would you say? Your specialty is in the relationship. Relationship, the relational piece to experience.
Speaker 2:
What a good question. I think storytelling is really why I got into tattooing and why I love the entire path of it. I think it's it's such a profound form of storytelling, and so I, before my life as a tattooer, I worked as a yoga instructor, I worked in the birth world as a doula and a childbirth educator, and most of the work that I did in those realms was specifically trauma informed and trauma based work, and so I had, when I started tattooing, totally thought I was leaving all of that stuff on the shelf and being taking a completely different career path. And there's so many things that are relevant across the world, and so I do have a significant amount of trauma training as far as just understanding how trauma manifests in the body and how to handle it if it is triggered in certain situations and certain like physically intense situations, and so I think that that really has laid a foundation for how I sit with people. I did at one point I used to kind of I have done my website that I was a trauma informed tattooer and what I found is that it kind of set an expectation of who I was going to be and what I was going to be in my connection to tattooing with people and so after a few years of operating like that, I took that off my website because I'm never going to not sit with someone in a trauma informed way you don't ever become on trauma informed right but I say more to that.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, what? What was more? More precisely, I guess, like the piece that made you want to take it off your website. And so I curious, because I had this conversation with Sarah Sun and like I don't have that on my website, but I also, you know, yeah, in a similar way. Yeah.
Speaker 2:
I think what I found is that it was and I've spoken to a lot of artists that are, if you are empathetic in any way like I think it can be so draining to have someone in your chair who maybe isn't completely integrated in their trauma and you're holding space for that. What I found is that people were seeking me out more for a therapeutic experience as opposed to actually wanting the art that I was capable of making, and I think that when I took that off my website, I was still seeing the same types of people. But the entire experience was more about me being a container for their storytelling and for them to be able to integrate whatever trauma or experience they wanted to without me being responsible for it. It let me kind of meet people more where they were and it kind of removed the expectations so that people can come to me and just be their authentic selves and have their authentic experience and have their story and feel comfortable sharing their story and I can just sit with them. You know that there's not this expectation, I think. A lot of times I think people felt like they almost had to share their trauma because that was my specialty, that was how they found me or that kind of thing, and so it's wound up being, I feel, like a lot more of a healthy energy exchange on both ends. For me to just say this is me, and maybe you don't need to know the extent of my education and being trauma-informed, and I think for a while that became a bit of a buzzword too, where I think people on the tattooing end saw that that was something that was important or saw that there was a need for that within the community and then started marketing themselves as trauma-informed without actually having like the education to support that, which I think can sometimes become dangerous if you don't know where those boundaries are and how to handle that. Because I'm not a therapist, I'm not qualified to be a therapist, that's not what my education is but I can still sit with people in a trauma-informed way that allows them to hold their own story and I'm just kind of a witness to it.
Speaker 1:
Do you find yourself being choosier now, after you kind of had both sides of the experience? Are you more choosy about who you work on? Are you choosier at all, or do you take on most people? I know you have a following so you kind of get more email so you can really handle them.
Speaker 2:
That's another piece of this that I feel so incredibly fortunate to be able to take on only the projects that I feel are best suited for both of us. Tattooing is always a collaboration. Even if I draw a flash design and I say who wants this and someone shows up that day, it's still a collaboration, and so I think for me to be able to choose the projects that I want to work on, to make sure that each of those collaborations are enriching for both of us, is such a gift, and I know that that's not the case. It for sure wasn't the case when I started, and so I am very selective with the projects that I take on, not necessarily just because of the subject matter, because I love storytelling through plants and I have specific subject matter that I really love to lean into as an artist. But there's a lot that goes into kind of the conversation beforehand when I'm considering taking on a client to where I want to know what the story is behind the tattoo, and I know a lot of people, a lot of artists, don't, which is totally fine. It's not everybody's cup of tea to want to know the details about your grandma and where she came from and why you chose this pattern or that kind of thing, but for me, the more information that I can get about someone's story, the more permission it gives me as an artist to interpret it. And I feel like, if we are able to nail down what the story is that you want to tell, there's a million different ways that I can draw it, and it winds up resulting in a lot fewer adjustments to the design, a lot less back and forth, and it gives me a lot more artistic freedom. If I start from a place of like okay, let's make sure we're telling your story in the way that you want it expressed, and I think that, like, if I start there and people and I resonate with the story, everything else feels really good, and so that's kind of how I choose my projects. Actually, my intake forms are a little more thorough I get a lot of really lengthy emails that I read through when people send in their projects, but for me, that's wound up being a very successful way of making sure that every person that's in my chair is someone that I have the capacity to sit with.
Speaker 1:
And so do you do a Zoom consult first, before you have an in-person consultation with them.
Speaker 2:
I don't. No, I do like I have a form on my website and I only open my books. I'm still trying to figure out what the best system is to do it, but I have my books three to four times a year and people will submit just during open booking through the form on my website. But the form asks quite a bit of questions that are. You know, I spend a lot of time reading long emails first, and so that's sort of the initial process of saying like, yep, this is totally something I'm interested in. No, this really doesn't feel like it's at my alley. And then I'll do in-person consultations with them after that. Unless they're, you know, out of town, then we'll do it over Zoom. But I really do like to spend a little more time in the consultation process as well, Just kind of getting to know people and getting to know if, as you know, if the project specifically is a good fit for me and I feel like I am the best person to do this tattoo. But also just to make sure that, like, we're both kind of energetically on the same page and that it really does truly feel like a collaboration. I think that that consultation piece for me is worth taking the extra time to kind of sit with people. I'll often have hour-long consultations with people before we ever even start talking about pricing and scheduling and all of that stuff.
Speaker 1:
And does it ever happen that you then reject somebody after you?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah, and I think For the most part, it winds up being a happy parting of ways, you know, because I think, at the end of the day, if it's not something that I feel like I can do the very best job at, I shouldn't be tattooing it, and luckily Denver is such a rich community of tattoo artists that there is. If someone has an idea, there is someone in Denver who can do it, and so it's very nice for me to be able to say, like I don't think I'm the right person to tell this story for you, but I think I know someone else who might be, and so I rarely will send someone out with a like no, this just isn't going to work without a yes to follow it. I think that that's really important, and I've definitely heard from people who I've said no to, who you know have come to me for other projects or maybe they'll pick up a flash design later, you know who will say like I'm so thankful for your honesty about what you were capable of doing, because I don't think people are used to having someone say I'm not good enough at that to do what this isn't, this isn't in my skill set, and I say that to people a lot actually.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I mean, I think like there's almost like this, you having a niche of doing a lot of like fine black and gray and black work. I mean you really you know it's clear, like what you're, where you like to work, like what your style is, and I think that's lent itself probably really well to a, you know, letting people know like what you want. This, you know watercolor, rainbow thing is not going to work like for my skill set, but also probably works really well for you getting a following, because people like to know what they want, what they can expect from your work, Right, so that's pretty cool, Like as somebody who does so much of everything and I do have my favorites but I do a lot of different things that people who know my work will be like oh yeah, that's still, that still looks like your work. But I'll be like, right, you know, if somebody who doesn't know my work, it looks like maybe 15 different people are doing my work, which isn't super great for, like me, building a following, but has been really fun for me being able to say like yes to many different kinds of projects. Not that I'm equally good at all those things, but people kind of expect that I will do whatever.
Speaker 2:
Sure.
Speaker 1:
I will have all this guilt when I say no, so like. I had to you know I was doing my email yesterday and I said no to a couple people and I have guilt about it. But I'm like you found me and you trusted me enough to email me and I'm saying who are you? Like? It feels so heavy sometimes and mostly you're right like they will come back and they'll say thank you, no problem. Like maybe I'll see you again some other way, like I'll come back with something else.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I will say that no guilt is very, very present for me. Yeah, I'm such a yes person, I'm such a people pleaser and I think that that I don't know that that will ever go away. Yeah, but I think that, like there's no one right way to do this either, I think I'm I'm in awe of artists who can and do create tattoos in multiple different styles. I think there's something really to be said for someone who is sort of a jack of all trades, you know, in the tattoo world, because there's so much potential. And if I didn't tinker in all of these other little things and when I first started, I thought I wanted to do color and that was kind of where I was like and what people wanted, because that's what people were asking and if I hadn't taken on some projects that I was like, well, maybe this isn't my thing, but I think I want to tinker with it, like you discover those things that you love by taking on all those other projects.
Speaker 1:
Tattoo trends, like how that's changed through. Like I've been tattooing for 15 years and when I started in 2008, first you know we had it was like the wall flash was happening. And then the wall flash went away, like pretty fast, people want to custom work. And then I started doing like watercolor and like black lace work and like things that weren't really happening in traditional world. And I did a lot of watercolor for years, like I basically kind of paid my bills, even though it's not something I want on me, like I'm you can't see this, but I have like a black hapsily yes yep. That's a blast over and I just wanted to keep going down like I love black, like now I'm just like all black, like this was a big colorful piece and it's a Raven, but now it's mostly black. So it's like what I like to do on me and what I like to do on clients, like a kind of different things, even though like black work of school but I'm not that good at it, sure, but yeah, like it's shifted so much for me over my course of my career as far as what was trendy and even though I can still keep doing what I'm doing, for the most part, my clients a little older, you know, it's not like the 20 year old kids who want these like stickery looking line work pieces.
Speaker 2:
Right.
Speaker 1:
But it's kind of scary and I don't know like, as a person who's been doing this for six years and has like a solid practice of black work, do you feel like you're getting? Is there any shift for you in the trends? Is maybe numbers different from the Bay?
Speaker 2:
I mean, I think there will always be trends, right? I think there. It's so funny to me that things like 90s tribal is coming back around.
Speaker 1:
I know it's for that again. It was so fucking ugly then.
Speaker 2:
And I'm like I've covered up so many of these, but, like I, why are we doing this again? Okay, here we go, yeah.
Speaker 1:
I'm going to refuse, I'm not doing it.
Speaker 2:
Right, I think I've definitely done my share of I've dabbled in a few watercolor tattoos. I think fine line tattoos became very trendy there for a little while. I think we're starting to see them aged six to 10 years now and how you know, understanding, like, how those things wind up aging or settling into the scan. I think that, like there's a reason that those trends sort of die off. But trends and tattoo is so funny because it's not like clothes where you can kind of see the shift happen in real time. Trends and tattooing have to like have that time to sit and for people to grow and to outgrow maybe some of those ideas that they had that they thought were trendy or were cool, and then we start to see those trends shift, like seven or eight years down the road. So I'm starting to see some of the very first tattoos that I did. I'm having people come back and having them covered up now because they're like maybe this wasn't a great idea, let's, let's do something else, but it just I think it takes so much longer for those trends to sort of shift because we need time to integrate those things into our bodies, into our skin, and I mean, shoot, I have tattoos from the early 2000s that are now underneath, way better tattoos, because not just because they were trendy stylistically, but also because we change as people and you know, the stuff I thought was cool when I was 20 is not the stuff that I think is cool now that I'm 40. You know it's. So I think that, like trends, trends and tattooing are a little trickier in that way. But I think something that I learned kind of the hard way because I kind of initially rejected all of the like super traditional tattooing when I first started tattooing I didn't want to do traditional stuff. It wasn't the aesthetic that I liked and so I just really didn't have any interest in even learning it. And it wasn't until I was a few years in. I was at a shop where everyone was miles and light years better than me and I was definitely like the littlest fish in the biggest pond. And then my the shop owner and my mentor was like you know, why don't you go back to your foundations? Like, go back and try drawing some more? You know trotty flash that you would have done at the beginning of your apprenticeship? And I was like I never did trotty flash at the beginning of my apprenticeship. And he was like, okay, that makes so much sense. And he I was three years into tattooing he tasked me with going back and making very traditional flash tattoos and it was the hardest thing I'd ever done. It's so difficult to simplify that much, but what I realized in doing that was that every successful tattoo follows the same formula the traditional tattoo issue Tell us. You know what I mean. I think it's either the basic rules of thirds of your black to gray to negative skin, Anything that you can simplify enough to be able to do in one line. Weight is gonna look the same way as a tattoo 20 years from now. And all of those foundational pieces. I was like this is what I'm missing in my botanical work. These are the things that I'm missing in having high contrast illustrative pieces, because I didn't have those foundations to start with and it was. I ate a lot of humble pie, you know, going back and doing traditional flash and tattooing some very traditional pieces, because that was never what I was wanted to do. But I feel like I learned so much in going back to kind of the foundations of the art piece of tattoo and learning a little bit about like this path and like the history of what tattooing has bet you know. And so I think then being able to take that and apply it to a lot of what I'm doing now. I do a ton of botanicals. It's like my favorite thing to do because I think flowers, while they're trendy now, will always be relevant. You know, if you look back at like Renaissance era paintings like their flowers have always been a subject matter, and I think decorative motifs are always relevant.
Speaker 1:
I feel like people put so much meaning into their tattoos at first. Right People go. It has to be very deep and meaningful. Some years later not everybody, but most people go. I just want to be pretty, I just want to enjoy it.
Speaker 2:
Yes, and I think that botanicals, for me, wind up being the best of all of those worlds because I can help people tell stories that in a less literal way. You know, I have a lot of people who are like I want something that honors you know, those kitchen sink tattoo requests that you get right, that they're like I need something that honors my grandma and I want my kid's name and I want my dog's footprint, and I want all of these things, of all of these different creatures that have been important to me and it's amazing to be like okay, so what did you love about your grandma, was it? You know her perseverance. Let's find a flower that is symbolic historically of that and let that be the celebration of your grandmother. And then, as an artist, I get to make an amazing tattoo of a Magnolia, you know, and you can choose to share what that story means for you or not, and I think that that then can grow with people a lot in a way that, like having someone's name tattooed on you as an example, maybe doesn't grow with you, and so I feel like, for me, leaning really a lot into botanicals is sort of my way of walking that line of trendiness in tattoos of being able to like be consistent artistically with the things that make a successful tattoo as far as like the line work and the contrast and the shading and all of the things I learned from going back and doing some traditional stuff but at the same time it lets people have something beautiful and meaningful and we get back to that storytelling component for them and I feel like it just checks all the boxes so nicely, and so I think that's really why I've leaned so hard into doing botanicals, because I think it just it satisfies everything all of those needs you know from a creative and a storytelling perspective.
Speaker 1:
What do you think about work that is not necessarily built to last in the way that traditional work is, or the way that things informed by traditional choices, technical choices are, is? I had you know I'm in this like ongoing internet fight with a bunch of dudes on Instagram where, you know, somebody posted some stupid meme about how you know, trad is the way and there's no other way, and I was like or not like, you know not everybody. You know not everybody is here to make things last 100 years, like that's not necessarily the point.
Speaker 2:
Right.
Speaker 1:
And of course, all the dudes jumped out my throat about how I should be tattooing.
Speaker 2:
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:
But, like you know, I find that a really interesting conversation about like sure we want tattoos to look good 10 years out, but also tattoos look the way they do 10 years out, Like it's just skin, is just tattoos. There's no magic ingredient in that specific style. Like sure it'll be darker and maybe cleaner, but like that other thing can be freshened up or like covered up, Like maybe that person will be dead by that point.
Speaker 2:
Like you know, Right, right, I think that is such an interesting line to walk and I Tattooing as an art form is so different in that there's a lot more like right and wrong ways to do things versus painting or working in colored pencil or any other medium Right. And so a lot of times in art we have the ability to be like oh, you don't like that, screw off, it's my art, you know, like I, this is my self expression In tattooing. There's a lot of rules I feel like, and so there's. You do sort of have to walk this line between, like, knowing the rules well enough to break them intentionally and knowing exactly like okay, if I do this tattoo like this, it's maybe going to be a little blobby in 10 years, but here are things that I'm, if you're moving into that from an aware space, that that's what's going to happen and you're in conversation with your client around that being a conscious decision. I think that's very different than a tattooer who's just doing stuff that looks good right now, with no awareness or conversation around those things. I also think like tattooing is art. As artists, it's our job to push the media and it's our job to not just do things the way they've always been Like. That's the whole point, and so if we lived by those sort of like tradi this is how you tattoo standards to an extreme, like we wouldn't have cartridges, we wouldn't have the innovations in machines that have I've seen or been tattooed by like such a vast number and types of machines in the 20 plus years I've been getting tattooed. The facts that we can even do fine line micro portraits is mind blowing to me, coming from where tattoo machines were 20 years ago, and so I think it should absolutely be pushed. I think the mediums should be pushed, and I think that there is something to be said for tradition and for all of the things that our tattoo ancestors have figured out before us as far as what works and what doesn't, and I think that's a really hard balance to find as a human, as an artist, as a tattooed person, where we're combining the forward motion of this art form with the rich history and tradition of what we know works. And I know a lot of gatekeeping comes in there, which you know, like there's I have a lot of opinions on, like gatekeeping and apprenticeships and all of those things too. But I think, at the end of the day, tattoos are for everyone and they're not all gonna look the same and we're not ever gonna approach them the same way, and I think that's the beautiful thing about it.
Speaker 1:
So Well, there's also things that have never existed before, like the kind of white ink we have now. That wasn't existent 15 years ago when I started.
Speaker 2:
Right.
Speaker 1:
And you know I do white outline tattoos on people for who's skin it is appropriate, and I see them age and they age beautifully, like my partner has. I mean not aged like 10 years, but five years. My partner has some white ink tattoos on her that I did five years ago and they're beautiful. They're so beautiful, they're so white.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
And a lot of these you know chatty people would say like that's not, that's not. You know a good tattoo or whatever whatever that means.
Speaker 2:
Right? Yeah, I think it's really difficult to know, because a lot of what we do in our day to day is based on the things that we've been told work or don't work, and I think for me that's such an important part of why I choose to work in a group studio environment, because I'm constantly surrounded by tattooers who are better than I am, who know more things than I do, who have been doing this longer than I do. I never want to be the smartest person in the room, because if I have questions about, like, if I have a client who comes to me and says I want XYZ and I've never personally done that before, the only way that I know if that's gonna work or not is based on what other people have experienced, and so that, for me, is really important. But there's also an element of like, fuck around and find out, you know. Like, if I haven't done it before, I don't know if this works for me or not, and so sometimes there is a level of experimentation which sounds a little scary when you're putting something permanent on someone's body, you know. But one of the challenging things about tattoo again compared to any other art form, is you don't have immediate feedback to learn these things, because your tattoos change after they leave your chair and maybe, if you're lucky, you'll get to see a tattoo you did 10 years ago and see how that aged and apply that information to how you're tattooing now. But there's a 10 year learning gap before you can start making those adjustments in your work, and so sometimes it really is just well. I think this is gonna work. I've seen this work or I've talked to other people about how this works, and I've also heard people say why this doesn't work. So how am I gonna integrate that into what is true for me as an artist? How am I gonna integrate that into how I'm serving my clients and being in conversation with them and being very honest about like this might not work? Here are the things that could go wrong with this. Are you cool with jumping in? Or? I think where it becomes problematic is where artists will do things like like micro portraits maybe, as an example, and there are artists who are incredible at it and you see the pictures of them brand new on Instagram and they're charging $5,000 for a micro portrait, and a lot of times what I've heard from people who are wearing them is that they didn't realize when they got the tattoo that it wasn't gonna hold up, and so I think that that's maybe like an ethical conversation and a question there where how much are we in communication with our clients about the realistic expectations of tattoo ideas and doing innovative things in tattoo as an art form? Because I think just communication with our clients about what's realistic is super, super important.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah, I mean informed consent across the board. Right Is what we need to do, but I'm also I'm kind of at a place of taking our mortality a little bit less seriously.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
You know, and just like the mortality, like people being like it's forever, it's not forever, it's until you die. And also it's not forever because you can change it and cover it, you can expand it, you can go over it, you can remove it entirely, like it's not forever.
Speaker 2:
You know we need to be that precious about it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:
While taking it seriously.
Speaker 2:
And like, how different is that for you compared to the way that you thought about maybe your first tattoo? Because we think that's such an interesting shift in mindset. Like I know, I was totally the person who micromanaged the crap out of my first tattoo and I if the sweet, sweet woman who did my first tattoo is still out there tattooing somewhere like I wish I could find her and tell her thank you for putting up with me.
Speaker 1:
I do still have it.
Speaker 2:
I do still have it and it's it's special. You know it's not one that I'll ever cover up because I think that was like what broke my heart wide open for all of this. But I think the way that I approach tattoos now is very much. It's so much less attached and I think that some of that comes with age. I will say like the amount of openness and flexibility and just sort of like receptiveness to the process with clients that I have that are like past their mid 30s is just very different than people who are getting their first tattoo when they're 19, you know. But I think just that idea of it's just part of my story, of where I am right now and I don't need to think about what it's going to look like when I'm 80. I don't need to think about what if I hate this in six years. You know, like if it's important enough for me right now to go through the process of the pain and the experience and the intensity to put this on my skin, then that's important enough to do right now. And there's a reason why tattoo has stuck around for most of human history. There will always be that need for storytelling. There will always be that need for sort of that controlled intensity and to let other people see how hard you were willing to work for whatever it is. You know whether it's just to look cool or whether it's to honor something or it's a right of passage. Like there will always be that need for this, and so I think sometimes we get a little overzealous in micromanaging and overthinking what we should and shouldn't do. My therapist always like has told me a few times like stop shooting on yourself. Like we should on ourselves way too much with this stuff.
Speaker 1:
For sure. It's hard not to, it's hard not to compare.
Speaker 2:
Well, what's right for me isn't necessarily right for you, and that's okay, like it shouldn't all be the same. But would take away from the richness of the craft if we were all doing the exact same thing all the time.
Speaker 1:
So boring. I mean, that's where we came from, you know, it was the 80s and 90s. It all looked kind of the same and it took off like right around the time that I started tattooing and it was so exciting.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I feel like you came into it right at the time where things really sort of started to shift into it being more of a fine art as opposed to like a low brow sort of art form. And I always love to hear experiences from people who were in tattooing during before and during that shift, because I came into it when it was, you know, full force in the fine art direction and so I think that it's really important for those of us who are newer babies to tattooing to have some reverence for where it's come from and that transition on that that it wasn't always as easy as plug and play. You pick up a cordless pen and a cartridge and you swap it out like markers and you get to just make art Like. So there was a lot that came before that. So it's neat to talk to people who have been through kind of that transition.
Speaker 1:
And I still use coils mostly.
Speaker 2:
Do you?
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
I use. I've used one coil machine. I admittedly wish that I would have learned how to build machines, but it wasn't something that even the person who taught me to tattoo knew how to do, and so, yeah, it's something that like. Maybe someday I actually should go back and learn.
Speaker 1:
Well, it's something that I've thought about learning a lot, but I had a interesting. I kind of sidestepped the men of tattooing for the most part because I started at Black and Blue, which is a woman owned wasn't all women all queer shop. And then at some point it switched and there are some boys came in and started working there, but it was kind of after I started. And so I went from that shop to another women owned shop and none of these some of these people were trained traditionally, but none of them really like sat around making needles and machines, sure. And then in my second shop there was no dirty room at all. Actually, we did away with the dirty room in the first shop. We started using plastic tubes, disposable needles all the time. So I just kind of sidestepped all of that, even though at the time I started it was still probably happening in a lot of places.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
But yeah, and the only shop I'm thinking about, like, I spent some time at Classic with Corey Norris, but he also uses disposables at this point, so yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 2:
I think for me like it would be more of a. I like to be a thorough learner and I like to learn the history of things and learning things just for the sake of learning. And so, from a practicality standpoint, there's no reason for me to stop using cartridges. And I just finally was peer pressured into using one of the cordless pen machines. I'd never used one before. I'm pretty my heart is with Dan Coobin's machines and that's where I've been the most successful, and I know he has opinions on cartridges and that kind of stuff too. But yeah, I'm thankful that someone put a coil machine in my hand just to say, like you should learn this, you should try it, you should feel what it feels like to have a lawnmower engine attached to your tattoo machine and just see what you can do with that. And it was an incredible experience. Probably not something for what I do, that I would want every day, but I do think that it's a piece of my education that I wish I would have had the history of, I think, just out of out of reverence for where things you know, how far things have come, and I will say it really makes me happy when we're in a room full of people getting tattooed and the you know, the music goes off and it's so awkwardly quiet because everyone is using their silent pen rotary machines, you know, and it just makes me so happy when someone across the room fires up their coil and I'm like it sounds like a tattoo shop.
Speaker 1:
Totally right. Yeah, I know I love that too. It would know my clients would be like this is kind of loud. This other person I got tattooed by that was quieter and I'd be like sorry, I just really love coils. And they don't even understand why. They do say that, yeah, or I'll be like using a rotary and then change the coil and I'll be like sounds like it'll be more painful. I'm like actually it's probably going to be less painful.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, some of this rotary machines are mean.
Speaker 1:
I mean because there's more right, there's a spring, so there's more given it, so it bounce off the skin more.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, but I was going to say if you, if you found somebody who could teach machine building and you set up a little workshop, I will come to Denver and pay money and like, sit in that room and do that with you.
Speaker 2:
That would be amazing. Actually, I will put out some feelers for that, because we have we have a couple of really incredible traditional artists that in the shop that I work at, that build machines and still do that, and that's something I've always wanted to like take the time to learn. So maybe that, maybe it's time, maybe it's time to put that out into the world and the yeah, like a day long or weekend long workshop or something.
Speaker 1:
I would totally come to town and do that, that would be a fun.
Speaker 2:
That would be a great idea. I love that idea.
Speaker 1:
And I bet I know other people who would too.
Speaker 2:
That's awesome, that's a really good idea. Well, and I think that a lot of times there's a lot of man. Instagram is kind of a mean. I mean, I mean the universe, but you know, I see things all the time about like, oh, these new tattooers. You know, baby tattooers don't even know how to hold a coil machine, or you wouldn't even know how to weld needles, or like. You're right, I don't. I don't know those things. And it doesn't mean that I'm less of a tattooer. It doesn't mean less than an artist, but I would like to know, I want to know more. I want to know more about this craft and I think the deeper we can dig into different styles of tattooing and just understanding different techniques. You know, there's something from doing watercolor tattoos that I could probably apply to the way that I tattoo now. There's something from realism tattoos that I could apply to how I'm doing what I'm doing now. There's something from building and using a coil machine that I could probably apply to what I'm doing right now, and I think that we rob ourselves a lot of the richness of this craft by getting so stuck in. This is the right way to do it.
Speaker 1:
Or this is the only way I'm willing to do it, the tools I'm willing to use for sure, yeah, and I mean honestly it's hard to. I've worked on my own for a decade now and it's hard to be in like little bubble and not really have right, Like all I have is really the internet. And it's honestly because the shops here charge 50%, you know, and so when I looked at, I was like maybe I want to go work on shop again. Well, that's, I can't, like I have to work so much more to make the bills.
Speaker 2:
That's the other huge piece of this that I think maybe a lot of people who aren't tattooers don't realize is that not only are we doing this like rich artwork that requires so much of our time and energy, but we're all running our own businesses too, and there's, I would say, maybe a handful of people who are good business people and good artists. Most of us don't have brains that work well in both realms of that, and so so much of the decision making process that comes, you know, around like how many clients do we take, how do we pick our projects, what type of studio do we work in? All of those things come down to all of these little things about the business side of things that aren't the glamour things that go on Instagram, you know, like people don't realize how much artists pay in boot threat. People don't realize how much needles cost. People don't realize how much we have to set aside in taxes, you know, or if you run credit cards or all of those things For sure yeah. And it's. Yeah, I think the business aspect of tattooing is honestly what leads to a lot of the burnout that comes from Doing this as a living, because I I mean, I will shop from the rooftops. I think being able to tattoo and make art and support my family is like the I feel so lucky, it's the best job in the entire world and I wouldn't trade it for anything. But it's so hard, it's it never gonna be a 40 hour a week job, and I think that that Is maybe why people feel a little more protective too, of like here's how this should be done, because I had to work so hard to make XYZ, or there's a little bit of gatekeeping, I think maybe around that too, because of how hard people don't realize you have to work to do this work.
Speaker 1:
And it's not for everybody, it's not. That's why there's, you know, the gatekeeping. It's like, yeah, it's a little, it can be. It can be a little frustrating to look around at the how many more tattoo artists there are and also to keep in mind like my clients will come to me. I got my piece, like, yeah, taking my piece away. You know, yeah, my piece is going away. It's because I'm not doing something like I'm not doing enough of something. I'm not putting myself out there in the right ways.
Speaker 2:
So yeah, yeah, I think there that is such a good way to look at it, and if there's any threat to your business, it's because of something you're doing and not because of something.
Speaker 1:
What else is doing? Yeah, exactly. Yeah and speaking of that, you I mean. I know we're, we're going a little, we've been talking for a while, but I wanted to ask you about your relationship with social media, because I think that's such a part of this job at this point and some of you all kind of resent for the most part, but I don't know what is your relationship with it.
Speaker 2:
I would say resentful is a good word. Yeah, I I try very hard not to complain, because I think that I would not have the career that I have, I would not have the the ability to Make the art that I make and support my family the way that I do, were it not for Instagram. I think that I just Happened to start tattooing at a time when Instagram still had a very authentic reach, and so I was able to Make connections in ways that people who are using Instagram now are not able to do, because I think the beast that is social media has shifted so much from what it used to be, and it's can you say more to that? Yeah, I think I love that. It's a tool. I mean, the reason we're sitting here having this conversation right now is because we found each other on Instagram, and so I think, like those connections are really amazing. I'm getting to meet people that I wouldn't have met otherwise. I get to tattoo people who don't live in Denver, which is really amazing, and I get from, like the I guess I'm like the authentic reach before.
Speaker 1:
You're like you're saying you built your following back when people, when you could post something and somebody would say look at this cool tattoo Shannon made and exactly follow them and okay, yep, and now you're not getting as much of a no, yeah, it's not the same.
Speaker 2:
I mean, I was looking just back even at the likes that I had this time last year and I went from, you know, averaging about a thousand interactions on each post To under a hundred people interact with what I'm posting now, and from a business standpoint, that's terrifying, you know, because it's it's you have this thought of, like. Well, what happens the next time I open my books? Do people even know I'm still here? And I think that that's why it's a tool, but it's not the only tool, and I think that that's why the connections that we make with our clients are so important. And I have to remind myself often that tattooing existed way before Instagram did, and that word of mouth and you know your work out living in the world and other people say, seeing what you make and saying I want that is ultimately going to be how businesses survive, and I think there are a lot of tattooers who are very good at Instagram and who play the social media game really well and that works for them, but I feel like, at the end of the day, the artists who are making real connections with their clients and have the same people coming back to them in their chairs or their sisters or you know. I'm tattooing now kids of people who I tattooed, you know when I first started, and other kids are old enough to get tattoos, you know, and so so much of it. I think it's just because I made those connections and it has nothing to do with Instagram and social media, so I'll complain about it. I hate that I can't reach people the way that I used to. I don't want to be a content creator. I hate that I have to make videos now and reels, and I'm 40 years old. I'm not gonna do a TikTok dance to get people to look at my tattoos, but I do still think that it is a valuable tool if we can harness it and use it to our benefit, and I'm I'm thankful that I was able to Connect with you and to be able to do things like this, because they think that it can be a catalyst To things like this, where we get to have these great conversations with other tattooers who maybe we otherwise wouldn't be able to sit down with. But I think it can't be the only tool and I think we get lost in Feeling like that's all there is.
Speaker 1:
What else do you do for marketing?
Speaker 2:
um. What else do I do for marketing?
Speaker 1:
I don't do a newsletter.
Speaker 2:
I will. I do have a mailing list that I Send an email out to people when my books are opening, and so I think that that's a really good tool For the people who want to know what's going on and want to get tattooed by me but don't want to play the Instagram game. I think email is still a really awesome tool that we underutilize, but I think I'm at the point now where I've built enough of a following and I've built enough of those people who are out in the world Wearing my work in a way that's recognizable that I don't have to do additional marketing. My shop doesn't have to do additional marketing for me. People just email, like people just know the shop, they Mm-hmm yeah yeah, which I think you know if I was working in a private studio would probably be a different challenge. I think there's would definitely require more marketing and things on that end, but it's it's possible to do without Instagram, and there are plenty of tattooers who are so good at what they do that don't rely on Instagram for their marketing, and so it's not. I Like to tell my teenagers that, like, the internet's not real and we have to remind ourselves that, like life exists outside of the internet and I say it more to myself than I do to them sometimes, but it's hard.
Speaker 1:
It's hard to remember that even you know, even if you're not a teenager. Yeah, yeah, how old are your children? How many children do you have?
Speaker 2:
I have two kiddos. They're 14 and 16 right now. So we're we're in in the fun, we're in the fun.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, it's a, it's quite an age. Yeah, yeah it's are they Attracted to or appell by tattoos?
Speaker 2:
they both of my kiddos want them. I always wondered if that was gonna be something. That was like they were gonna rebel by like not wanting to get tattoos and being, you know, accountants and that was gonna be there like push against me or that it's something that way was gonna be a generational thing. But they both want tattoos. I've tattooed some of their friends who now are turning 18 and stuff, and so it's really cool as a parent To be part of those. Kiddos writes a passage into adulthood. I think that's such a cool, like a sacred thing. But a lot of times, you know, kids don't get that like care around their first tattoo, and so I feel really special to get to be part of that.
Speaker 1:
So yeah, I have the same, like I'm a best friend's knee blings, you know, one of them is now over 18. I've tattooed them a couple of times and the other ones Coming up like I think the other ones like 15 and yeah, yeah, it's so fun to be that person for your people's people.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, and just see what ideas this next generation of tattooed people are bringing to this too, because, like I said, I is it always being a collaboration, like the things that they know are possible and the things that they are Are experiencing in life, and their stories are going to start shaping how we tattoo, and so I think it's really neat to be connected to this next generation of people who are going to be coming to us In order to tell their stories, because that's gonna shape how our tattoos move in the future, too.
Speaker 1:
So Mm-hmm, yeah, it's. I mean I have my first apprentice coming right up. You know this fall and I'm like I've kind of been waiting for this person to Not the specific person, but I've been like it's gonna be the right person so, and I will learn so much from doing that from yes. Helping somebody else learn. It'll be an amazing like part of my learning, so and I'm excited because she's like 23, 24 and, yeah, like the fresh blood in my life.
Speaker 2:
Oh, that's so exciting.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
I feel like that's the thing I said. I don't know that I'll ever go down that path of teaching someone how to tattoo. I don't know. My, my son talked about wanting to learn for a little while and I was like maybe it was my kid, I might consider doing it, but that would always be more difficult when trying to send out to somebody else.
Speaker 1:
Do you think is amazing?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1:
Well, it's just like you know that the dynamics of the relationship they already have, the clean, the clean, your room dynamics. That might be really hard.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. So I think that's so exciting for you and I applaud you for that undertaking because it really is, as I'm sure, as rewarding, as it is challenging to like bring someone else into Into this craft. So congratulations, that's really exciting.
Speaker 1:
Thank you. I feel like I'm about to adopt the child.
Speaker 2:
Yes, that's the way it should be. That's the way apprenticeships should feel, I feel like, because that's how you know that you're gonna get A lot out of it if you're taking it that seriously.
Speaker 1:
So, oh, I am, yeah, I think you know. I don't know if you're an enneagram person, but you sound like a two, which is what I am. It's the giver and it's you know, there's a lot of Ways in which, like, it's so exciting to give and to be generous and it's also so we have to be aware of, like, what's happening so we don't get resentful and we don't give too much, we don't overstep someone else's boundaries by giving too much to them and like pushing our giving this onto them.
Speaker 2:
That's on the nose. I feel like that's such a yeah, that's exactly Exactly where I live, um, and that I think In this, in tattooing specifically. It's funny how many people I think are drawn to tattooing who are like that, who are givers, um, yeah, I wonder what I would love to do into psychology of that, of like, why, why is it that people who are givers like that and need those reminders of boundaries in our lives Are drawn to this type of work? Because it pushes that so much?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, it does there's yeah, it's so complicated and beautiful. Um, so what would you? Is there something you would like clients out there? Not your specific clients, just clients of tattooers, which is I assuming. A lot of my audience has clients potentials and clients of tattooers. Yeah um for people to know like, is there something like a little nugget of wisdom?
Speaker 2:
Hmm, always ask questions, mm-hmm. Artists like your tattoo artist is just another human and I know that sometimes tattooers can seem very intimidating and the whole process being in a shop and that kind of stuff can seem intimidating. But Remember it's always a collaboration and it's always okay to ask questions because it should. You should leave a tattoo experience feeling Empowered and you should look at your tattoo when you're done and remember the experience of getting it and be super super happy about that. So, yeah, I would say that's my number one advice that I give to my clients and to anyone's clients, is like Please don't be afraid to ask questions, even if your knees are a little shaky and we're a little, we're a little scary.
Speaker 1:
And if the person makes you feel like you can't ask questions, like you don't have to get tattooed by them.
Speaker 2:
Yes, yes, you can say no.
Speaker 1:
You can walk out.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I. Why is Young me needed to hear that? I don't know why that's so difficult, but like you can be, like you know what this isn't right. So, yeah, listen to your gut. That's like the best advice in life, just in general.
Speaker 1:
So so true, yeah, and um. My last question for everybody is what is a small thing that's making you happy right now?
Speaker 2:
Oh, a small thing that's making me happy right now. Um I Gosh, it's hard to choose which is so exciting, I mean you can say a few, you don't have to choose one. I. This time of year is my favorite. It's like fall is just. I just feel the most alive. So Me too me right now it is like 68 degrees in Denver and I'm where, I'm like sitting under my fluffy cozy blanket and I'm just like, yes, yes, it's fall time. So that is, that is my, my happiest little moment right now, where it's it's fall, it's finally fall.
Speaker 1:
I can't wait, are you getting some leaves and stuff like that?
Speaker 2:
It's starting to. We're starting to turn. It's a little later this year than it normally is, because we just had so much rain this spring that I think everything is just shifted a little later. But Um yeah, I can't wait to like crunch leaves under my boots. It's my favorite thing.
Speaker 1:
I love fall too. It's my favorite people here in california are all about the summer and they're so Like. It's like gray and overcast. I'm like. I live for this right, right.
Speaker 2:
I feel like you guys probably don't get as much of a fall out in california either as we do here.
Speaker 1:
So, yeah, you have to go a little higher up into the mountains, which I do.
Speaker 2:
Good, good. Oh, micah, this was such a joy, pat with you. I feel like I could talk your ear off for the rest of the day.
Speaker 1:
So I know, right, we I would have to make like three or four episodes, right, chat with you forever. I'm like we were just. I was just in denver for a wedding and I was like this is a really easy trip like this, an easy flight, it's a short flight.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, well, if you ever find yourself here, please reach out. I would love to Show you the shop or introduce you to some of our community here, because this really is such a rich, wonderful, um, community of people here. So, yeah, let me know if you're ever in town again and you want to step by.
Speaker 1:
I would love to and, um, also like the machine thing. I'm totally serious, I would love to learn about machines and you know, if you have someone there like I don't really Know people here who would do such a thing- I, I have some people in mind.
Speaker 2:
I can put some feelers out to see what we can put into the world.
Speaker 1:
So Thank you so much for saying like a kind of a blind yes, I mean, I know you investigate a little bit, but like you don't know me and you know, thank you for like trusting that. you know this is all done with just like the purest of intentions and yeah yeah, it's kind of collecting snapshots of our um, really beautiful community From you know tattooist and also People that I tattoo like clients. I mean, I'm just like I'm so excited to do this, you know, and I'm so excited to like get to me people I would meet otherwise, like you said.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it feels I this felt so much more approachable than like some of the like big, scary tattoo podcasts. So keep doing what you're doing, because the world needs more of that like authentic, gentle conversation. Yeah.