Meet Kinky Barbie, the queer, kinky, polyam, switch, witchy bundle of snakes in a thong, who embodies her life on her own terms.
Barbie lays out her journey with body modification and her perspective on it as a form of self-care. You'll hear some of the sparkliest stories from our ten plus year long friendship. Polyamory, growing up in the South, secret inner chambers, favorite sex toys, a recipe for peanut butter keto cookies, exotic dancing... it all makes an appearance and honestly we've just scratched the surface.
Come hear a little bit of the story of... Kinky Freaky Amazing Barbie!
The cookies Barbie discussed can be found here:
https://www.sweetashoney.co/wprm_print/64376
An article on Fakir Musafar (mentioned in the episode), his legacy and his work can be found here:
https://medium.com/@fa.fa/a-critical-retrospective-on-the-father-of-contemporary-body-modification-1315d405e4bb
Episode Transcript:
Speaker 1:
It's loaf tea.
Speaker 2:
Lemon and glazed loaf tea. Does it taste like lemons and sugar? Moon Day, hi Barbie.
Speaker 1:
Hi Barbie.
Speaker 2:
Hello, hello, my darlings. This is another episode of Ink Medicine podcast. I'm here with my friend Kinky Barbie, hi, barbie.
Speaker 1:
Hi Barbie.
Speaker 2:
Will you please introduce yourself? I'd like to hear your well, your name, kinky Barbie, and your pronouns and some of your identity markers. Sure, and also your favorite sax toy, yeah.
Speaker 1:
So for today, Kinky Barbie is my name and I am a Kinky, queer, poly, switchy, witchy, fin of center person. I, as you can tell from my accent, I'm not originally from California. I was born and raised in Southern Appalachia and I moved to California 20, 22 years. It's been 22 years. I use her. They pronouns she, they. I'm not particular about my pronouns. Even a good hearty sir sometimes is very fitting.
Speaker 2:
What's your favorite? Let's narrow it down like an impact toy.
Speaker 1:
Oh, favorite impact toy. As a top I would say the cane. Cain is my favorite impact toy and if I am bottoming, maybe also the cane in the right hands. In the right hands and I would say just my overall favorite sex toy right now is a set of wonderful belts that Mr S Leather comes out with. It's about a set of five and they come in different sizes the five and they're made for restraint around the body so they don't really pinch, they don't really they get snug. But they're very comfortable and everyone seems to love them.
Speaker 2:
I love them, so they're like literally they look like belts, like something you would wear as a piece of clothing, but then you use them for the body. They're just wider.
Speaker 1:
That's fascinating.
Speaker 2:
That's correct.
Speaker 1:
So I would say they're. You know well, different lengths have different widths, so the longer ones have a nice thick width for like upper body. You can wrap it around the chest and around the shoulders to kind of keep the arms nice and snug and swaddled in leather.
Speaker 2:
That sounds lovely.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I think it's kind of a comforting feeling for most of us.
Speaker 2:
Let's go back to the beginning.
Speaker 1:
Sure.
Speaker 2:
Once upon a time, you had a long-term partner and I had met your partner on a dating app and I was dating your long-term living partner for like nine months.
Speaker 1:
Yes, this is true, True story.
Speaker 2:
You and will you, will you please give your perspective on that time of when we met? Will you tell me, tell me the story of how we met?
Speaker 1:
It was so long ago that my memories get foggy, and my recollection is that you were dating my partner at the time and we had decided to meet, and so you were going to come over for dinner and in my recollection I made a terrible soup that would not finish cooking. It just would not get done. And I remember you bringing flowers, lovely, lovely flowers, and sitting in my kitchen waiting for the soup to never finish and having conversation that just flowed, felt good, your humor and your personality were coming through and I just took an immediate liking to you.
Speaker 2:
I felt like it was very important to please the wife of your lover. Not please in a sort of like check mark kind of way, but like the human element of interacting with someone who's in an open relationship. The people that they're involved with are part of your world, even if you don't interact with them very much. So of course, I wanted to make a good impression on you.
Speaker 1:
And my takeaway, coming from Southern culture, was like oh, this is someone who, despite it, didn't matter what our connection was. It was that you showed up, you were on time, you were respectful, you brought flowers, which is what you do when you want to get to know someone, and you show up, being open and curious, right, and that's what I just really respected and appreciated about your presence that evening.
Speaker 2:
Was that not your experience of other people? You're partner dated.
Speaker 1:
It varied. I would say you were probably the most curious and open and engaged and I don't think that's always easy to do with the long term partner of someone new that you're dating Like. That can be a very intimidating situation for many folks. So I had a lot of respect for your curiosity and just showing up, being ready to engage.
Speaker 2:
And time went on and I stopped dating your then partner, but we kind of circled back around to each other. What's your recollection of that time?
Speaker 1:
Wow, I think I had wanted to go dancing one night and I didn't have anyone to go with and so I made a social media post of, like it's anybody available to go dancing? And yeah, you stepped up. You're like I want to go dancing tonight. And we went dancing in the Castro and I do remember being in a bar that was mostly fellas game in.
Speaker 2:
As the Castro goes.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and I remember it being packed and hot and sweaty, so, yeah, that was fun. That was a fun night. Did we make out? Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so. We were both drinking and it's like, oh, let's give this a try, and it was fun. I think that's the only time, though. Yeah, yeah, but again there was that openness and that curiosity, right that I was like, oh, look at that openness and curiosity Just going to gravitate towards that.
Speaker 2:
And I think that there's also just this element of queerness, at least for me, that especially when I was younger, when I was in my 20s, that most of my friends started out as like ambiguous, like is this person someone I really like and want to emulate? Is this person somebody I want to make out with? And I think that just was never really straightforward in the beginning, you know. So I would say most of my close friends at some point tried something with and then been like, oh, but okay, we're like actually just supposed to be friends and like chosen family. But yeah, it was, that was a fun night. It was the first time. I mean I was intimidated by you. You were like so cool.
Speaker 1:
Oh, which is funny for me to hear, because I find myself to be rather goofy and awkward.
Speaker 2:
You know, there's an element to you that and I think we all have everybody who is told they're intimidating, right, like I get told this sometimes too, and I'm like, what are you talking about? Like I'm so you see what you get. Like, ask me anything, you know, but for you there's an element of like mystery that remains always, like there's a part of you that you keep very private.
Speaker 1:
And so that.
Speaker 2:
I could always feel that like as open as you are, as much as I can ask you any question, as much as you will tell me whatever. I don't know if it's just energetic or if it's, like you know, literal information, but there's this like secret chamber in you. That is like the mystery, and I think that's where the intimidation can come from. For some folks and other things are just like you're really smart, you are really you know, you know a lot like those things intimidating to a lot of people also.
Speaker 1:
I don't know how much I know, but I can definitely be direct about things I do know.
Speaker 2:
I mean, you are a doctor after all.
Speaker 1:
Well, yes, I feel sometimes like that meme of the Muppet Grover from Sesame Street in a doctor's coat.
Speaker 2:
What does the meme say? I don't know this meme.
Speaker 1:
Trust me, I'm a doctor.
Speaker 2:
Oh, that one.
Speaker 1:
Yes, sometimes, you know, there are the things I know about. I know about and I'm always. I think, the sign of when I know myself that I know something is when I'm willing to not argue about it and just be like, yeah, okay, like I don't need to argue with someone about something that I know, and I'm always open to having data or research or even you know, especially people's lived experiences, to change my opinion. I kind of watch for places where I get rigid in my thinking and to me that's usually a sign I don't really probably know as much as I think I do. I want to backtrack for a second. I was thinking about that like secret chamber thing. I'd like that. Is it a metaphor or analogy metaphor? Yeah, metaphor, I hear that sometimes and I used to think, no, I don't like that. But yes, yes I am. I have come to accept that. There's a part of me that and it's different parts with different people Not everyone has access to, and you know there's parts of me that, for example, only you and a handful of other people have access to, right, there's parts of me that only my partners or lovers will ever be able to access. There's parts of me that only my parents or my sibling can access, and there can be some emotional walls there, or compartmentalization is probably a better description, because it's not so much a wall that I can't walk through I can. It's by choice, and that's something that I continue to explore. Does it serve me, does it not? Does it get in the way of forming genuine, authentic connections? Is it protective or is it more about safety in a healthy way? So I don't, I don't know yet, but that's something that I could do, continue to explore in conversations like this, through journaling, therapy, all the all the stuff. But but, yes, long COVID. Yeah, that's something that I struggle with, and it is. It's a bitch.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, the thing is about it right. We don't know very much about it and there's all the, all the things that could help you experimental, so yeah, that sounds incredibly difficult.
Speaker 1:
It can be, I think, one of the most the top two most difficult things about it. One is just not being able to do things you want to do, not having the energy for them. And then the second frustrating thing is to not be understood.
Speaker 2:
Right, very few people can understand what you're going through.
Speaker 1:
I find most people that that get it have autoimmune disorders and live their life through pacing and spoon theory, as I do now. But for the majority of folks in my life that's something that's not part of their lived experience and so it can kind of be difficult for them. I do think that as more time goes by, the people I'm closest to, even if that's not their lived experience, are starting to get it. They're starting to understand slowly.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mean, I'm always grateful when you're able to come out and hang out and do something like go see the Barbie movie last week.
Speaker 1:
I really enjoyed that and I really appreciate you allowing me to give you an answer last minute, because I didn't know. I didn't know how I was going to feel, but yeah, it worked out.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I do miss is tattooing you. We've taken a break since you've been dealing with health stuff and you know, of course COVID also in general put some breaks on my work with many of my regular canvases, but you and I have a really beautiful body of work on you over the course of now, however many like 10 years or something.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
I really love what we have done. There's not working on each person is not the same for me, right? Not just because of the subject matter of the work, but the flow state in which I can get into with each person and the amount of trust and the type of art that the person is interested in and how it intersects with my interests and what I want to be tattooing. And I think there's probably like literal lists we could make of how our interests intersect in that space, but there's just this energetic flow that happens. That's so fun and easy to work on you and the kinds of things we've been doing. They are also somewhat experimental. We've been doing some work, you know, white dots, and then also black dots, black work and scales, like all this type of stuff. It's also, you know, and then the decorative elements on your back. It's all very interesting and exciting for me as an artist. So yeah, like that's always also not always for the last 10 years been a part of our connection and a part of the intersection of our energies and interests is that that's not to work we've been doing on you and that's some of my favorite work that I've done ever, you know.
Speaker 1:
I have such a it can be kind of difficult to describe in a way to verbalize and be articulate about my bodily experience around tattoo, because for me it's not just about depiction but identity, and part of why I love my body is because of the artwork that's displayed on it. And I would say, you know, if someone were to ask me like, how would you describe your, your tattoo work, I would have to say that it's like a growing vine. It's definitely an organic creation that is influx. It's not something that is stationary, at least not most of the work we've done. Some of it is stationary, but even those stationary pieces are in flux. We do change them around. So the body work for your listeners who can't see me is pretty. It's a full body goal and it is organic and in growth, with the front side being mostly white work, in the backside being black work, and our current thoughts is that it will be shades of gray in the middle part, but where they intersect. But for me, part of the joy is how it represents me, constantly growing and changing, and then the joy of what we create together, of like, as I was speaking to someone the other day, I think with you you were there, I think, was that half of the work, majority of the work, isn't the inking, putting the ink into the skin, it's the drawing and the collaboration and you being an artist and drawing on my body and trying to work with my Barbie curves and still staying true to who you know me to be within that work.
Speaker 2:
That's where it's really. You know, that's the ease of. It is like there's something about the combination of your specific body, my eye, the way that I see things, and your energy that really works well together. That's not always the case with every person, of course.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I can. I agree with that statement and I also think occasionally I can get a little like no, I don't know, what do I think I don't know, but mostly I don't. I'm not worried about us finger quote messing something up Because it's in growth. Like if you and I create something and I sit with it and I don't particularly feel affinity towards it, I can say, hey, micah man, this, this part or this piece that we worked on recently, I'm just I'm not feeling the pull and you'll be like, no problem, we're gonna, you know, lift it. Yeah, and that's something that I no longer show up to any body body modification appointments being like, am I going to mess something up?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, well, that's the piece to that. You know that. I know like it's not about not ever making a decision. That might not be the ideal decision. It's more that I trust you to tell me not everybody will tell me, you know, I'm sure it's happened with people and people haven't told me that they weren't feeling it 100% and then you might live it and like, live into it and feel fine. If we'll start to feel, you know, fine, and I have pieces of my body like that too, where I was like not sure why I got that piece, like why did I do that? And then be like it's fine, like it belongs there. You know that I trust you to tell me which is a huge thing, to trust you to tell me if you're not 100% happy with something and then I trust you to trust me to shift it, and that those like those different types of trust in this process are just so, so, very important for for there to be this like good, easy flow. No, that's also part of it.
Speaker 1:
In a way that reminds me of what we were just talking about, about how certain things, certain in your experience of me, certain parts, seem reserved or withheld or at a distance, and I would say that there's something that you have access to in me that most people will never have access to, which is that kind of trust around creation and permanency.
Speaker 2:
There is permanency in this, even if it is growing and changing my and taking care of the past, so through taking care of the body.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely, and there's not a lot of people in my life that have access to that kind of trust for me. You know, I'm definitely more of a skeptical cat when it comes to like, oh, you want to do something permanent to my living house. I don't know, I don't know about that, but when I, when we, work together, my experience is one of collaboration and trust in a way that I don't experience with a lot of people, and I don't know how much people really stop to consider their relationship with a tattoo artist. For me, that's been. There's growth that's come through our work together because of who you are and who I, who I am, and how that works together and how important that is if someone finds identity in their body. Art.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so I was also going to touch upon. So you, I think of you as somebody who is very heavily body modified without outwardly looking like you are. This is true, which is one of the freaky Barbie pieces. Can you recount some of your body mods for the listeners who will? Also? They will be able to see them on you, because you can't you can't tell when you're just looking at you. But if you, if you don't mind, recount some of your different body mods, sure.
Speaker 1:
And I will make this.
Speaker 2:
I will make this episode explicit, so people, people know.
Speaker 1:
I was about to say I probably don't want any underage listeners, necessarily.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I don't think that I have too many, but we'll just make it explicit, just in case.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and and the adults in those folks life can can screen it and make a decision. I guess you know, I don't know. So, yes, it obviously. Folks, I have some tattoo work. I have quite a bit actually, and it will continue to grow over the years. I've also had many piercings, and I do also have scar scarification work, and most of that scarification work, though, is within the realm of ritual the piercings. Some of them were done as just pure aesthetic, some done is ritual. The most recent is ritual. So, yes, if you are looking at me, I have. It is hard to tell that I have so many body modifications, and I used to have a septum piercing which people could see, and Southern mother chased me actually I was a grown ass adult and she chased me trying to get a hold of my septum piercing. Oh, southern mama's, I tell you, Well that's.
Speaker 2:
I mean that one is like, like that is like your, the most basic one of your piercings.
Speaker 1:
It is, but that was the most visible one. Yes, and I did have nipple piercings for quite a long time and eventually that was just too too irritating.
Speaker 2:
How many ounces of metal do you feel like you might have below the belt?
Speaker 1:
I don't know in ounces I was. I was starting at the top and moving my way down. I started at the septum, get to the good one started at the septum and then nipples, and I don't have any of those anymore. I do have double belly rings.
Speaker 2:
I love your navel piercing because it's on the bottom. No, mine are on the top, Yours on the top. That's right, Okay, yeah, they're like snake bites. I was like there's something about it. They're like the snake bites.
Speaker 1:
They look like little snake bites. They are doubles and I have some very lovely jewelry in there right now that I purchased from Goldfinger. People want some high quality, quality jewelry. That's a great company to check out.
Speaker 2:
Paul yeah.
Speaker 1:
Mm-hmm. And then even further below the belt, I have six outer labia piercings, and that was done in ritual. That was done by Paul Stoll actually he did that for me. And those piercings I got after a pretty intense separation from a partner, my long term partner and that was something I really needed for myself to heal. And the ritual part is like you experience something sharp and changing and lightning fast and then it takes time to heal. So as the body heals through the piercings or through its process of healing around the piercings, so does the heart and the psyche, and that was a very difficult piercing to heal. Well, piercings.
Speaker 2:
Six piercings. That's a lot of piercings in one delicate area.
Speaker 1:
It is, and that means there's 12 points of skin that have to be tended to multiple times a day for quite a while. So six skin contact points that have to be babied and very carefully tended to, and the first year was a doozy trying to get that to heal properly. And it did, and I think it's been. I've had them for maybe five years now.
Speaker 2:
But they're also. They're big. What's the gauge on them?
Speaker 1:
12s. Right now they're 12. Due to the placement and gravity and friction, those piercings will expand naturally over time. So I don't know if I'm creeping up on 10 yet. I think it's been two years since I've tried to put a 10 in, but eventually they will get to be 10s.
Speaker 2:
And I don't know how to really describe it for folks who don't know much about piercings, but a regular like belly button barbell, that a person might know what that looks like. That would be what like a 20, 18, 20?.
Speaker 1:
Most piercings are 14s 14s. Okay, 14, 16s depending on the piercer, but most are 14s. It's kind of a standard 16s and 14s are kind of standard piercing gauges. But you know what? Don't? Don't quote me on that. I'm not a piercer.
Speaker 2:
I'm not going to quote you on that, we'll just people will hear it. But I appreciate that we have more certainty in that than I do. I was just thinking about how to describe, you know, the bigger the number or the smaller the number. Rather, the bigger the circumference of the metal, and so a 10 or 12 is going to be quite a bit bigger than a 14 or 16 or 18 or 20,. You know, 18, 20 will be smaller than 14, 16. So those folks who are unfamiliar with how piercings and piercing jewelry works, who could think of it as like in a doctor's office.
Speaker 1:
A needle is probably going to be like anywhere between like 26 and 36 gauge, and right for like like an injection.
Speaker 2:
Uh-huh, that's right.
Speaker 1:
Or 22s, maybe 22 to 32, something like that. I don't know.
Speaker 2:
But so I'm considering also the other things that you have chosen to do to your body, to enhance your body with, to also be modifications.
Speaker 1:
So, yes, I have other things medically that I have done, that I consider body modifications. I don't know why many people don't consider them body modifications, but I do. The most noticeable one is breast implants.
Speaker 2:
I would not say they're noticeable at all, because they look like you were born with them.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, they are very natural and that was something that I did in my early 20s. When I was 22, I had a scare. This was before I moved to California. Right before I moved, I was graduating college in an undergraduate program and my partner at the time we were playing around and she found a lump in my breast and so I. They didn't want to just do a biopsy. At the time. They believed that doing a needle biopsy could finger quote seed cancer growth if it was a malignancy, and there's a very, very strong history of breast cancer in my family. So I was directed to a surgeon and I also had a wow. Part of long COVID is that you can't find certain words Doctors that work with cancer.
Speaker 2:
Oncologists oncologists.
Speaker 1:
so I had an oncologist and they decided to just go ahead and completely remove the lump and it was pre-cancerous and they removed. They were able to remove the whole thing and I didn't need any further treatment and I was able to move on with my life and go to graduate school. But it did leave some. It left some pretty intense, painful scarring and mild disfigurement and so two years later it was like I'm going to get breast implants and I have loved them.
Speaker 2:
Have you. You've never had to like redo them or anything, right they just from the original time you had them done. They've lasted this long.
Speaker 1:
Yes, correct, they have Now. Eventually, as I age, I will have to have them redone. Yeah, and I don't know what I'll do. I'll probably. I may not have new implants done, I may just have reconstruction done.
Speaker 2:
Is that different from? I didn't realize that was different from implants.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, reconstruction is using a person's own body, fat, skin, muscle and just have the breast reconstructed without an implant. I mean, sometimes I think people do put implants as part of reconstruction, but I think as I age, my bones would probably appreciate not having implants.
Speaker 2:
Like not having as much weight in the front, or like your back Correct.
Speaker 1:
Back shoulders. You know, as we age, our muscles and our bones get kind of tired of lugging things around. Yeah fair. As so many of us are familiar with.
Speaker 2:
And something else you said at some point when we were working I was, we were chatting about, I think, different like procedures people do. I think I asked you you know, have you heard of the fat freezing thing? Right, because I have a friend who is a, a satician, and so she works in a clinic that's medical, like it's not a clinic, it's a beautician, a satician, whatever studio and it's, but they have medical machines and medical people doing the other like those other more medical kind of types of things. And I had asked you I don't know why I was thinking about it, but I was like, do you know about this stuff? And you were like, I've done it all. I you know, I've like had every procedure you could possibly. I've tried it all, experimented it like, asked me anything?
Speaker 1:
Maybe not all of them, but probably not all of them. But a handboy yes, and that one in particular I had. I was like do not waste your money.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and I don't. I haven't wanted to to do that, money wasting or otherwise but I the. What I love and like loved about that conversation is just that you're like I like to experiment, I like to play with things, I like to test things out. Like you sort of see your body as a playground and as a place that you can experiment and try things out and like, but also as a person who clearly like, regards their body with much respects and reverence. It's both and like. That to me, is so kinky and fun, you know, even if it's not necessarily sexual, because I don't think of kink as being an only a sexual thing.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment and I would add that the body is the only one we get, so it is precious. And to baby it, to not allow it to move, to grow, to change, by using it Of course we can grow and change by not using it, but if we don't let our body this again, this is my personal experience in my opinion that by not allowing our bodies to move and experience some of the ouchies that come from movement, like running or lifting or playing games, we're doing a disservice to something that's meant to do those things. I mean we're not allowing our bodies or our minds to have a full human experience. It's like no, of course I don't want to, like you know, accidentally cut myself, for example, but to allow the body to experience sensation in an intense way, which most people would call pain, but to allow the body to experience intense sensation in a way that's controlled, that's not harmful Tattooing is one of those experiences is to not allow the body to have its, or the psyche to have its full range of experiences and I'm not talking about traumas, right, but things that we consciously have a choice in. So body modification, kink, playing sports, right, treating our bodies as precious as they actually are, like we wouldn't keep a pet, we wouldn't keep a partner, we wouldn't keep a child of ours from going out running across the field or going out on that swing set.
Speaker 2:
Some people do right and that's not considered healthy.
Speaker 1:
Yes, yes, I agree.
Speaker 2:
I'm thinking about, like a parent with a child. That's overly protective, right, you would think that's a pathological safety keeping that's not actually going to work.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I agree, it's not going to work. So my the experiences I like to have are can definitely be edgy you know I'm over here being edgy Barbie in a lot of ways and is there risk? Of course, but I don't get to experience what my body's capable of without risk.
Speaker 2:
It's a famous quote by Fakir is that he would say it's your body, play with it.
Speaker 1:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
I feel like you embody this teaching of his quite well.
Speaker 1:
Oh I, I'm honored to hear you say that.
Speaker 2:
Thank you and the other piece that I also early on, you know, right, I feel like so much of our impressions of our friends and our people come from early on, like sometimes not because things grow and change, of course, but in some ways you know things that stick with you, are things that you remember from early on. And I remember that I, you were dating and I set you up with somebody that I knew for a date and you you had the date and let's see, I don't know how to put this without sounding like a total dick, but when I was setting you up on this date and this is not to say anything about this specific person, but you were like, I don't care what the person looks like, like I'm attracted to a range of different people. It's really more about the energy and the play energy and like the top and bottom energy and the you know what happens with that person, more than like how they look. And I also was like amazed. You know, I love that because, as much as I like I have been attracted to a wide range of people, but I would say that for the most part, I am. I am very influenced by what society says is attractive, and that's why I tend to be attracted to people lots of other people find attractive not exclusively, but I just was like this is amazing, like you're attracted to, like just whoever like people you know based on them and not how they look like. I wish that was my story. Yes, but that's like for me. You know part of like a part of part of you and a part of the king and the mystery and the body play of you. Like that piece of you. You know that you're open to experiences and so like running through the fields, no matter what the field looks like, if it's green and grassier, if it's like boggy and has lots of like tree stumps on it.
Speaker 1:
Yes, because there are treasures that can be found in the bogs. Yes, I really appreciate you saying that, and it does come up sometimes when people are like, oh, you know what's your type, and anyone who really knows me kind of laughs at that question, because I don't have a type and when it comes to play, the factors are more about openness and curiosity and energy flow than anything else, more than age, size, gender. Never let language barriers really get in my way too much either. You know I find ways to negotiate, you know, even if I've been, you know, in another country, so I, I will. I want that for everyone, you know, because and I don't think we can all have that experience and I feel like even my own biases leak out, of course, influenced by culture. But yeah, I wish people weren't affected by our cultures, stuff, or you know what? What is it that we find desirable is so largely connected to our childhood?
Speaker 2:
Did you grow up feeling attractive like? Were you told by people around you, by the kids around you growing up, that you were hot?
Speaker 1:
essentially, I would say that I was known as a cute kid when I was super young. Like I was cute and I was very mischievous. Like I don't think my mom has a single picture of me under the age nine where I didn't have my tongue sticking out at the camera or making a face. I was very mischievous. But once I hit puberty I was not attractive. It was. I had some very challenging hair.
Speaker 2:
Did you?
Speaker 1:
Oh, yes, it does that. When I be ready, my hair is like you know what'd be a good idea Unruly curls. I had curly hair, braces. I had an eye patch for a minute, okay yeah. And then I went home Back in my hometown sometime like maybe 10 years ago or something, and I ran into someone I graduated high school with and the person was like, well, you grew up real pretty. Oh, it's like I don't know how to take that, I guess. But no, I was not really like classically attractive for most of my puberty.
Speaker 2:
And for you internally. So you so I know that in your 20s was it your 20s when you were dancing, mm hmm. Yeah or for money. What happened like between that time and that time when you were going into doing I will call it sex work light Mm hmm, Sure, mm. Hmm. How did you conceptualize of yourself, you know, as you were deciding? You would be doing that like if you had grown up as a teenager not feeling attractive.
Speaker 1:
Oh, I didn't say I didn't feel attractive.
Speaker 2:
Oh you just, you didn't feel like other people saw you that way, but you felt attractive inside.
Speaker 1:
Yes. Mm hmm, I was like, oh, I have this body, that is fun. I was athletic, I was strong. I did not shy away from, I didn't find sex to be a horrible, nasty, sinful put that in finger quotes thing. I was kind of raised to see it as just a natural part of the human experience. So I didn't feel unattractive. I knew I was not the like classic attractiveness but I knew that I had a strong, healthy body and I felt that I used it a lot. I used my body a lot.
Speaker 2:
You just started having sex young.
Speaker 1:
Pretty average around 16. Yeah right around 16. And then, you know, I went off to college and I was working on a degree and I had always been kind of like not. I was like men are something's wrong here, something's wrong in the world, in my experience of the world, something's wrong in how things operate, and I never could put my finger on it. And then I went off to college and I was like, holy shit, how is no one in high school talking about patriarchy? Why is this the first time I'm ever hearing this word? And that I had to stop dating men because I was just not. I was really struggling with the entitlement that I was coming up against of like boys ages 18 to 22. And I use definitely boys. They were not men, they were boys and there's just so much entitlement that I could not bear to be around them. But I moved to California to go to graduate school and one of my fellow classmates was like hey, you're healthy, you're strong, you have a nice southern accent, I am an exotic dancer. Maybe you should give it a try, because you're going to grad school and working a full time job and you can barely pay your bills. So I went in with this friend and she got me all set up and I started exotic dancing and I did that for two years and I took a break and then it did it for another two years and that really helped me pay the bills through grad school. I did have to stop before I finished school because I needed to start doing placements and internships and things like that, but I would say that at that point I came into my body in a new way, in a way I hadn't experienced it still strong, still feeling playful in it. But I realized that a lot of people want access to it. Ew, gross, right. Well, I built up this great way and like, oh yeah, I want you to have access to it. I don't want you to have access to it. Or, if I was working, it's like I want you to have this much, this one inch depth of access to it. And sometimes I loved that work, absolutely loved it. It was entertainment, not only for them, but for me. It was hard work. It made me feel strong, very physical work. Other times I had terrible experiences, mostly around entitlement of men, but for the most part, 90% of my interactions were simple, kind exchanges and I also never did full nude work, so that probably contributed to my time of contentment when I was an exotic dancer. I never did full nude work and I also came up with this great visualization that really helped me, which was that I am a woman with shape made out of snakes, so I no longer have flesh and bone and organs and blood pumping, I have just a writhing mass of snakes, and I really loved that. As you know, I'm very partial to snakes.
Speaker 2:
Instead of like two kids stacked in a coat, you are a bunch of snakes stacked in a dress.
Speaker 1:
I was like a bunch of snakes stacked in a thong bikini. Yeah.
Speaker 2:
I feel like I need to draw this for you now.
Speaker 1:
I would love to see what you would come up with. There's no way to not have it be comical. It's like just a body of snakes in a negligee.
Speaker 2:
And that is why you have an arm full of snake scales.
Speaker 1:
I do, I do, and I think I also have snake scales on the backs of my ankles. Yeah, I do.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, you have a little bit.
Speaker 1:
Yes, Snakes are very, in my experience, very gentle creatures, but they contain so much of our human fear in their image and for me that shedding of old skin is also a very important part of human life that the snake physically manifests.
Speaker 2:
Are we planning on a snake tattoo beyond the being of the snake inside the scales?
Speaker 1:
I don't think so. Who knows? Who knows? It's a mystery. I do think that these scales that your listeners can't see me pointed to. I think we had talked about slowly fading to gray and then to white down towards that.
Speaker 2:
That would be beautiful. Yes, I will want. When we're making a post about this episode, I'd love to put maybe some pictures of the tattoos, if we're not putting a really obvious. Other photo of your lovely face.
Speaker 1:
Sure.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
I'm comfortable with that.
Speaker 2:
So what's next on your roster for body modifications? Do you have a plan for the next 10, 20 years, or is it all just as it comes?
Speaker 1:
I think, as it comes, so much is dependent upon health. But as far as body modifications and tattoo work is at the top of my list, I don't have any piercings or scars or any medical procedures on my to-do list. I think right now, the way my immune system reacts, even tattoo work would be a challenge. That's at the top of my to-do list is getting in to spend time with you and collaborating together. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:
Oh, thank you. Yeah, thank you. I was thinking recently about getting there's a juice of a fruit that some people use to create henna-like. It's a henna-like experience, but it's dark blue, almost black, and not brown. So I was thinking about getting some of that to play with, maybe more intense tattoo I know you're not interested in like black work on your neck or anything, but I was thinking about getting some of that stuff to play with, things like big, heavier pieces on myself and other people, if you want to try it out and see what it's like.
Speaker 1:
It's permanent.
Speaker 2:
No, it's not. It's last for two weeks.
Speaker 1:
Oh yeah, I'd be curious. Is it the same process, though, and needle-stimulating no?
Speaker 2:
no, it's like henna. Yeah, you draw drawing on the skin with the juice and then it stains the skin and then lasts for about two weeks.
Speaker 1:
Okay, I'm down.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, I thought you might be something you know, since you can't really be tattooed right now.
Speaker 1:
That would be fun. That would be fun to experiment with the back piece that we're working on, because we haven't spoken about it, but it's been on my mind of like some vining and growth that I would like to do back there.
Speaker 2:
I want to share another little story that makes me smile when I think about it, about the back piece. Yes, this is when we were-.
Speaker 1:
I'm already laughing.
Speaker 2:
You came in for a session and we were like having little shot glasses of wine. Oh yes, I had some like wine left over in the shop from some event and I was like, let's have a little tiny bit of wine, literally little shot glasses. We had a couple of little shot glasses of wine, felt a little sparkly and warm, not really buzzed by any means, and we're working. And you're like you're like Micah, I love you. You're like just do your thing on me and if you make a mistake I don't care. You were just like going on about how. You're like, yeah, everything's fine, you can just do your thing, it's all good. I was like, okay, yeah, I love you too. Good, I'm not planning on making mistakes. We had worked on a specific piece in the middle of your back and I think I probably talked you into it being a little bigger than you were wanting originally, and then you were saying all this stuff. I was like mm-hmm, yeah. And then the next day you were like I think I called you. You called me. You were like I think it's too big and I was like, yeah, I remember what you said yesterday, Okay. But also I said it's okay, We'll live with it. I think you will live into it, it will feel fine. But you got to get used to it.
Speaker 1:
Which is exactly what happened, and I do think that those little tiny bits of why I do think what I said was true, though that was the true serum. I do trust you in this process and I am not concerned about mistakes, because it is growing and changing.
Speaker 2:
Yes, it was just so funny to now think about it. But the next day, in that space, so relaxed and being like it's all good, and the next day you were like I'm sober, this is too big.
Speaker 1:
With my rational mind kicked in oh my God, what did I do? But no, it turned out that it is a lovely size and I did just need time to let my mind catch up in the perception of the piece. When I look at it now, it doesn't seem big at all.
Speaker 2:
No, and it's the root of other things.
Speaker 1:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
So it makes sense to be that size.
Speaker 1:
And I keep a lot of this covered. A lot of people don't see the size. A lot of people don't see my work at all and have no idea that I am modified, other than the occasional. Someone will notice that I have some white ink work on my chest, but for the most part my presentation in the world is not one of being a heavily modified person, even though I am.
Speaker 2:
But that's the contrast in dichotomy. That is part of the fascination of the different pieces of you coming together is that you'll wear a librarian little sweater with little buttons and gold Partial.
Speaker 1:
Partial to cardigans.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, but you have this appearance of being really proper, really like. I'm going to put quotation marks, like normal, around that word.
Speaker 1:
Sure.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and I love contrast in the world. I love it when people aren't expected, when you look at them and they look one way and they're totally somebody different inside. But it makes sense, it works, it's not incongruent, it's contrasting and interesting and layered and deep, and that's what you know. It's sort of like what I wanted to bring to the front in this conversation and even though people can't see you, so they can't get the full gist of what I'm saying, I think we succeeded in that.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I think so. The questions you asked are topics that I normally do not just discuss with folks. There are questions that I answer for people in my personal life and now for all your listeners too, but most people meet me and it doesn't occur to them that that would be a topic of conversation with me. I have a very conventional presentation and underneath it is a lot of weirdness, and I love that. I love weirdness, I love weird people, and I would say that my presentation also doesn't invite people to ask questions. Kind of to your point earlier, there are pieces of me that seem reserved, distant, distant, probably the wrong word, but often inaccessible. But if someone and if I'm having an experience with someone and they seem like an open, curious person who's grounded and this is where the conversation starts to flow to and they start asking me questions, I will often answer them. As you know, if someone asks me something direct, I will answer them, and I don't do that in order to avoid interesting conversations, but because those are not topics that everyone wants to talk about, or maybe I'm not in the mood, or maybe my answer would actually have to involve a third party and I don't want to speak for them or about them.
Speaker 2:
And you have healthy boundaries.
Speaker 1:
And I do have healthy boundaries. Well, I try anyway. It is a practice, these are a practice.
Speaker 2:
Yes, they are an ever present practice. Speaking of boundaries, this is all the time that I promised you. I would take a few.
Speaker 1:
Oh yes, I wasn't even watching the clock.
Speaker 2:
And I'm going to ask you my last sort of standard question.
Speaker 1:
I ask everybody oh no, you know, I don't have an answer for this.
Speaker 2:
I feel like you could come up with one.
Speaker 1:
Okay.
Speaker 2:
So what's a small thing that's been making you happy lately.
Speaker 1:
Oh, this is not the one I thought it was going to be. Okay, a small thing that has been making me happy lately is peanut butter.
Speaker 2:
I love this answer. This is exactly what I ask with question for like fucking peanut butter. You know someone out there is like I haven't eaten peanut butter in like however long. Maybe I'll go have some peanut butter and make them happy as well.
Speaker 1:
Don't forget about peanut butter folks. It is good stuff as long as you don't have a nut allergy.
Speaker 2:
That's as long as that's the case. What are you putting your peanut butter on?
Speaker 1:
Oh my goodness, oh, just a spoon out of the jar. I've been spooning it out of the jar. I also found a great recipe for peanut butter and a raw egg to make cookies. I mean, you bake them so the egg doesn't stay raw, but just peanut butter and egg cookies. Okay, amazing, give that a Google. Peanut butter egg cookie.
Speaker 2:
Okay, I will give that a Google. Give that a Google everybody. I will maybe put the recipe on the in the episode notes.
Speaker 1:
I'll see if I can find mine online the one that I've been using and I'll send it to you, but it's, you know, for people who who like fat bombs, or people that want some high protein, that are just, you know, maybe struggling with sugar or something like that, this is one of those comfort foods that is accessible to most of us who don't have a nut allergy.
Speaker 2:
So amazing. Yeah, thank you, thank you. Thank you for coming on the podcast. It took us a minute to schedule it. I'm glad that we made it work and I appreciate you being willing and open and also just like being in my life and being one of my closest people, and I love you.
Speaker 1:
I love you too. Thank you for inviting me. This is a practice in opening for me.